Shootings In Chicago

Interesting to see Bleeding Chicago attract this sort of Times coverage while Obama is still President. Then again, the Times also covers the rousting of the homeless in Obama's other state, so I guess they are Ready For Hillary.

Comments

[Marlene]

Hi!

[Miss Marple 2]

Bringing this over from tail end of last thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/05/us/politics/donald-trump-muhammad-ali.html

In which we find that Trump and Ali had been friends for many years, and that Trump was given awards for money he raised for Ali's charities.

AND that Ali did not think Trump was insulting him, nor that "those who take advantage of Islam to advance their own agendas" (Ali's words) were directed to Trump, but rather to jihadists.

And this is in the New York Times, by the way, which makes me wonder what in the heck is going on.

[Captain Hate]

Reading the story about Hawaiian deadbeats made me wonder if anybody has asked Zippy why he isn't going back to Hyde Park.

[Miss Marple 2]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/muhammad-alis-hometown-louisville-honors-late-boxer-our-inspiration-n585816

Cause of death: septic shock.

[Theo]

Ah, Sweet Home Chicago....

[Captain Hate]

Welp the USS Pantsuit has sent Podesta to Rove News Sunday to defend the indefensible. OMGWTFBBQ Trump bilked elderly people. Rodham has tried to help everybody since leaving law school.

[Momto2]

Did anyone hear Newt this morning? (I didn't but hoping for a recap)

[Momto2]

Clarice - excellent piece as always! Wondering if others will investigate the connection you mention (big donor/Gay rights supporter)?

[GUS]

Obama in Indiana trotting out his NRA strawman.
I'd like to have 5 minutes alone with Obama.
Obama tells gun store owner, Rodham and Democrats are NOT anti-gun-rights, and that gun sales are UP during his tenure. NO (REDACTED) you Barney Fife looking mother (REDACTED).
Obama is filth. 5 minutes alone with this ass hole, that's all I ask.

[Captain Hate]

Newt is on now and says that Trump is using the wrong tactics in attacking the judge. Trump's social media platform allows him to attack the MFM. Trump has to change his mindset from an individual to a team player. Rodham has absolutely no positive accomplishments and is a much more flawed person than Trump.

[Miss Marple 2]

Krugman's taking questions on the economy on Facebook.

It will be interesting to see the questions.

https://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekABC

[Captain Hate]

Rodham is delusional about thinking the Crime Foundation is this wonderful organization that has helped anybody. The protests against Trump will backfire. Newt has criticized Trump to his face and it has been well received.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--and that gun sales are UP during his tenure--

That's like Hitler taking credit for all the exit visas Jews applied for.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

My new avatar is a veritable inspiration. :)

[Captain Hate]

Hume: Ryan's tepid endorsement was still an effort to get behind Trump although he is making it as difficult as possible. Charles Lane: Rodham's attacks are the same things that Jeb tried and failed at. Rove: I hear that David French is a wonderful human being but him being a candidate is ridiculous. Anne Gearan: protests hurt Rodham. Hume: ditto

[Truthbetold5]

Newt is Trump's VP pick.

The open criticism is to show Trump is not thin skinned and that he is not just looking for a yes man when he announces Newt as his running mate.

[Man Tran]

Well, seeing as ta how neither jane nor caro revealed to us non-fakebook readers what really happened on the NRO cruise, we went to dinner with the only other people we know who went on the cruise: Jonah's sis in law and her significant other. Well.

They started off by spending an extra few days in Prague to flush the jet lag and ended up using Segways. So when they show up to register, they run into Fowler who volunteers that the Segway inventor drove his off a cliff and died -- to which our friend immediately responds "oh, just like you guys!" ... It went down hill from there.

The punchline: it was the only political cruise they'd ever gone on where no one talked politics. Worse that you Thanksgiving with the extended family of liberals.

Clarice, I don't think there will be anyone left to send you that fundraising letter. DOOM. (For them, anyway.)

[RattlerGator]

With all the Ali discussion, I don't think anyone's mentioned how George Foreman, after winning the gold in Mexico City in 1968, waived a little American flag. Quite the contrast to Tommie Smith and John Carlos, as well as to Ali.
Posted by: jimmyk | June 05, 2016 at 08:31 AM

JimmyK, that moment and that photo -- one of my all-time favorites.

[Captain Hate]

Gearan: Bern has had an impact on super delegate decisions. Rove and Gearen think Rodham will go over the top on Tuesday. Lane: inside the beltway regards the state department deleting of video is a big deal although it's a puzzler why they can't figure out who did it. Hume: the deletion was done to cover up that the state dept lies as a matter of course. Psaki probably didn't do it but she's a dirtbag anyway. Rove: this came from the White House and somebody needs to pay for it.

And that's a wrap.

[Beasts of England]

...this came from the White House and somebody needs to pay for it.

Nice to see Rove has a sense of humor.

[cheerleader]

I read that Newt and Ryan both publically said that Mr. Trump was wrong to attack the Trump U judge, so those are not points in their favor.

Roger Stone is tweeting that there is bad news about Christie coming out. I can understand why Mr. Trump severed Stone from his campaign at the outset.

Mr. Trump's interview with Judge Janine was pre-recorded before San Jose. Things change so quickly that pre-recorded interviews are often not timely when they air.

[JMHanes]

RattlerGator:

Wasn't sure whether to post my Ali comment for you on the last thread or this one. So naturally, I left it at the end of the last one.

[cheerleader]

Mr. Trump doesn't have to prove he is not thin-skinned to anyone. He confronts all his enemies directly and he never folds. Plus, some of his funniest riffs in his speeches are when he talks about his hair. The man can laugh at himself with the best of them. With all the other heavy stuff that he talks about the comic relief is welcome.

[hrtshpdbox]

..the Johnson-Weld ticket seems like a no-brainer for principled conservatives and Republicans.

Sure, if you're principled enough to refuse to vote for a headcase, but lots of people are finding new ways to rationalize that every day.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/06/03/gary-johnson-william-weld-libertarian-ticket-third-party-2016-column/85306178/

[sbw]

Last thread from CH: I think Frazier was less able to compartmentalize things and took the subsequent pre fight blathering to heart as a personal attack rather than a way to promote the fight for mutual benefit.

Hmmm. Trump. Perhaps his a way to promote election, not a way to govern.

[Truthbetold5]

Sure cheerleader

Trump does not have to prove anything to anyone. Got it.

[sbw]

** his is **

Preview is your fiend.

[cheerleader]

The only time I got really upset with Mr. Trump was when he went after Dr. Carson. Dr. Carson got over it, so I did too. Mr. Trump was fighting to win, and Dr. Carson was doing well, and after the attacks Carson's poll numbers dived, so Mr. Trump accomplished his goal. And now they are working together, they were the only real outsiders.

If Mr. Trump picks Ryan as his VP, that will be the second time he'll disappoint me.

[cheerleader]

That's right, he doesn't have to reconcile himself to anyone.

People can choose to reconcile himself to him, or not, their choice.

Let Trump be Trump.

If Trump isn't Trump, he won't win.

[clarice]

Momto2, the influence of Paul Singer is rather well-known but rarely spoken. He's big in Manhattan Institute and Erick Erickson's Resurgent.

It's hard to make a living pushing pixels--happy outstretched hands.

[cheerleader]

people can choose the reconcile THEMSELVES to him

[Janet S.]

Lane: inside the beltway regards the state department deleting of video is a big deal although it's a puzzler why they can't figure out who did it.

https://diplopundit.net/2016/06/02/that-statedept-video-glitch-not-a-technical-glitch-but-deliberate-request-to-excise-video/

"Look — the only reason no one would remember who made this request is if this were a common practice; if there were so many requests that the video editor or editors have difficulty sorting out where the requests came from. But if this case is an isolated one, if this has never been done before, and was never done again since then — well, whoever made thee snip would have a certain recollection of who made the request and why. You remember what’s out of the ordinary."

[Truthbetold5]

clarice

Who helps Lifson make a living?

[Miss Marple 2]

The only person I know of who made a lucrative business from a blog was Pioneer Woman, who managed to parlay her web site into cookbooks and a TV show. She did this by covering a wide variety of interests and offering prizes like mixers and knives and such to her readers.

Another one is Retro Renovation, who cornered the market on readers interested in Mid Century design.

I think that political stuff isn't lucrative. JMHO.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--The open criticism is to show Trump is not thin skinned and that he is not just looking for a yes man when he announces Newt as his running mate.--

Ah, but his most sinister, sly tactic will be when he picks someone else to be his Veep to prove to the real inside baseball guys that his real pick is Newt.

Unless of course he picks Newt in which case I'll look like an idiot....

...well, never stopped me before so why now?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--The only person I know of who made a lucrative business from a blog was Pioneer Woman, who managed to parlay her web site into cookbooks and a TV show.--

Yeah, and the family of the guy she married already owned 400,000 acres so she probably had a bit of a leg up to begin with.

[Beasts of England]

Djokovic is looking unbeatable. Not that Murray is a slouch, but Djok has a sixth gear. Very impressive tennis.

[Miss Marple 2]

Ignatz,

Quite true.

I don't know what financial backing the Retro Renovation gals had.

Pioneer Woman DID end up with 2 bestselling cookbooks and a TV show on Food Network. That income is hers.

However, my opinion on blogs stands. You simply cannot get enough readers on politics to make money at it.

I am not counting hidden donors. Just regular income from advertising and subscription fees.

[JMHanes]

I suspect Instapundit may be making a bundle, but that's assuming people use his Shop Amazon link. I'm getting a little tired of Ed Driscoll, though, mostly because of his compulsive linking to Roger Simon and beating already tediously repetitive Insty lines (the Press as Dem operatives...!) to death. I can put up with it, though, if it keeps Glenn from burning out. Hard to imagine a world without Instapundit or JOM.

[clarice]

It is hard to imagine, isn't it, JMH. When I'm on the road..I miss not being able to check in frequently.

[JMHanes]

cheerleader:

"If Trump isn't Trump, he won't win."

Trump as Trump won you over; now he has to win over all the other voters who will put him into office.

[sbw]

+1 JMH. Heh!

[cheerleader]

The problem with the "principled" folks is that they let the perfect be the enemy of the good. That is a common obstacle to success in all endeavors.

"The meaning of "The perfect is the enemy of the good" is that one might never complete a task if one has decided not to stop until it is perfect:"

In other words, All talk, No Action.

Interesting article that cites Voltaire and Shakespeare:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

[Theo]

I just do not see what Newt can possibly add to the Trump ticket. What constituency does Newt bring that would otherwise not be there for Trump?

I admire Newt in a lot of ways, but he is old, has high unfavorables, is not exactly a fresh face, has proven that he is not a good national politician, has no executive experience and has a lot of personal baggage.

Would Newt quell the doubts of those who are concerned that Trump is not a "true conservative?" I doubt it. But is that Trump's most important group to target anyway?

Nikki Haley seems like the right choice if she would do it.

[henry]

From Twitter I learn only 30 shot in Chicago so far this weekend.

[Theo]

"Trump as Trump won you over; now he has to win over all the other voters..."

Very well said JMH...

[DrJ]

I agree with JMH too, particularly in finding Driscoll to be terribly tedious.

Glenn has a good skill in giving a very concise summary to a link, one that is good enough to decide if it is worth reading. Perhaps he could give Driscoll some lessons?

[Man Tran]

Full disclosure; I'm the Ignatz mentioned in the article.

Carp, I thought that was our little secret. :)

[sbw]

Newt doesn’t fit either the political need or the need for state electoral college votes.

I was going to suggest Sarah Palin, but too many people would have gone apoplectic, not realizing my joke suggesting the decision-making calculus is really pretty hard.

My opinion is that he needs someone like Truman who was put in place by FDR because he was effective rooting out cronyism and crookedness.

[Beasts of England]

Nikki Haley? Okie doke...

[Tom Bowler]

Krugman's taking questions on the economy on Facebook.

It will be interesting to see the questions.

https://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekABC

Posted by: Miss Marple 2 | June 05, 2016 at 10:24 AM

Facebook comment moderation options will allow Krugman to moderate interesting questions out of existence.

[JMHanes]

clarice:

This bit you quoted from Daniel J. Flynn has been so incredibly striking, this time around, hasn't it?

Mistaking the views of a cliquish community inside a 64-mile band of clogged roadway for popular sentiment in the country outside of it, beltway conservatives inflate their influence. They imagine themselves as shaping the opinions of conservatives and quadrennially playing Republican kingmaker.

Kristol & the #nevertrumpers are the new naked emperors. That's what's so amazing about thinking "conservatisim" (meaning themselves) can survive 4 years of Hillary. Yeah, they may still be in the pundit business, but the idea that a chastened Republican electorate will start looking to their betters for direction again, instead of blaming them for the debacle, is myopic hubris of the first order.

[daddy]

Hard to imagine a world without Instapundit or JOM.

Word.

And Sunday Pieces by our Clarice!

[Jack is Back!]

Drudge makes beaucoup money but its not considered a blog but a news aggregator. Its where I start my day. There and the Daily Tory (you can take the Brit out of the boy but not the boy out of Britain).

[Theo]

sbw --

The story is that FDR really wanted William O. Douglas, Supreme Court justice, poker buddy and hard core lefty but got maneuvered by his aides into picking Truman instead. Neither of his prior VP's -- Cactus Jack Garner or Henry Wallace -- had worked out well.

Trump needs someone with Republican bona fides and broad appeal. Newt is considered a bit of a loose cannon in Republican circles and is very much negatively viewed by the general public.

Ryan would be okay, but he won't do it. A woman makes sense but not just any woman.

[Truthbetold5]

Trump purports to be the greatest executive there is. He will not pick a governor.

[Janet S.]

Loved Man Tran's 10:40 comment.

[JMHanes]

Theo:

Nikki Haley practically blamed Trump for the SC killings. I don't think she's in the running.

Maybe he should ask Romney.

[Do I need to add a disclaimer?]

[sbw]

JMH, the stunning (for me) insight into my son’s generation was that 1) they had been taught to trust experts -- those with credentials, and 2) they believed other credentialed experts (politicians and the press) were all they needed to check the first set.

Their generation has not abdicated responsibility so much as entrusted it to others.

Trump, bypassing both sets of experts, is a wake-up call to them. We will see in November if the alarm was loud enough or if Hillary’s “These are not the droids you are looking for” muffled the alarm.

[cheerleader]

JMH,

I'd bet you money it won't work that way.

In the end, you'll either reconcile yourself to him as he is, or you won't. He is not going to change.

If he doesn't change, that is, submit to all the "advice" he's being given -- including advice from his wife Melania, and daughter, Ivanka, who've asked him to tone it down, he'll win.

He has related in his speeches why he listened to what Melania and Ivanka said, and decided not to follow their advice. Then he went on to win more votes, by millions, than any other Republican in history.

Getting past the DMB filters (Dishonest Media Blockade) is helpful.

[Truthbetold5]

Theo

It's all about how they are going to sell the Gingrich pick.

[Art in Newport]

I think Nikki Haley is waiting for a chance to go for the top spot.

[Theo]

JMH -

I do not think that it is "myopic" of the Jonahs and the Kristols not to support Trump. It may be selfish, but it is not without reason.

From their point of view, a president who is elected without any help from them or without their presumed guidance and ideological wisdom does them no good. From that point of view, Trump is worse than Rodham. Rodham represents their traditional adversaries and they know that they will lose elections to those adversaries from time to time. But Trump is leading the people that the Beltway conservative elites think of as THEIR followers off in a different direction, most ostentatiously without their help. It is much easier to deal with being beaten by the other side than it is to deal with the fact that your followers have run off on you and are following someone else.

[cheerleader]

I dunno, sbw.

I'd rank it a -1, too stereotyped.

[Janet S.]

I like Ed Driscoll...& I don't mind the repetition of catch phrases.
the MFM = Dem operatives with bylines

It is how ideas get ingrained in culture. It's about time the right side starts doing this.

[JMHanes]

Well, I can only hope you're right, cheerleader. He'll get my vote because I won't vote for Hillary, not because he's Trump being Trump.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Carp, I thought that was our little secret. :)--

Heh. Well I know at least one person read that comment. :)
And he apparently read all the way to the end. Nothin better to do, MT. :)

[Theo]

I think Nikki Haley would be a good pick for Trump, but maybe she would not do it and maybe Trump would not take her. I don't know. She is certainly not the only possible pick that could help his ticket.

I do think that he needs someone with solid Republican credentials and broad appeal. Outside the Beltway executive experience would be nice and I think having held elective office is a must. A female would be preferable in my opinion. Young or youngish would be another plus.

A lot of possibilities beyond Haley. I do not think that Newt does him any good.

[Man Tran]

Thank you, Janet. I was beginning to wonder if I was in everyone's narcisolator. :)

[Beasts of England]

Djokovic bringing out all the ball girls to recognize the crowd is how you act when you win the big one. Pure class.

[JMHanes]

Theo:

"I do not think that it is "myopic" of the Jonahs and the Kristols not to support Trump."

That's not what I meant. What's myopic is to think that Republicans will tell themselves they should have listened to the Beltway conservatives if Hillary wins, instead of blaming them for the loss.

[Man Tran]

Ig, slow morning. Waiting for my code guy to dump some new magic on me.

[cheerleader]

JMH,

I'd also bet money that when it comes time to vote for him, after he's fought a long and hard campaign, you won't need or want that clothespin.

[Beasts of England]

The Jonahs and Kristols have let their egos write checks that their talents can't cash. They forgot the first rule of holes. A more selective audience comes to mind.

And, no, this has nothing to do with principles - it's pure, unadulterated narcissism on their part. Just look at some of the positions and squish candidates that they've tried to pimp this cycle. Pffft.

[cheerleader]

He wants first and foremost an experienced had in navigating Congress, where he knows he lacks experience. Nikki Haley not only couldn't do that, she is not onside at all with his world view.

[cheerleader]

experience hand

[sbw]

Slow, Man Tran?

Code quiz: What does F03 mean in computing history?

[Theo]

JMH --

If Trump loses, there will be all sorts of finger pointing and recriminations. I doubt that there will be anything close to monolithic agreement as to whose "fault" it is. They will be able to argue (as many here have done to explain past losses) that the candidate was simply not a pure enough conservative and many will agree. (In Trump's case, that might even be true.)

I assume that this is not what you mean, but the only way David French ends up being seen as the "spoiler" is if either (a) he gets a whole lot more votes than I (an admirer of French and very negative about Trump) think he will get or (b) the election is incredibly close. If the election is 2000 level close, there will be a million reasons why it went one way instead of the other.

The Jonahs and the Kristols will still have their constituency no matter what happens in this election. It is not in their personal interests to get on the Trump train. They can be more prominent as critics of a Rodham administration than they can be as supporters or critics of a Trump administration.

[jimmyk]

Djoko was looking a bit tight the last couple of games, and Murray put up a good last-ditch effort. Great win, first guy to hold all four major titles at once since Laver, I believe.

[buccaneer morgan]

Well I posted some pics about the trip, from the facebook, but there wasn't much interest.

This is why smoke filled rooms were important then, neither Douglas nor Wallace were suitable.

[cheerleader]

Beasts,

I think it was sbw who posted a few days ago, it's about being unable to admit being wrong. Which you are saying in a different way.

[Rocco]

Bill Kristol is the Benedict Arnold of our time! The original sold out to a Clinton too.

[buccaneer morgan]

O don't think that's it the standard has spent years chronicling red queen' unfitness, now never mind?

[Beasts of England]

Agreed, cheerleader. Those cats lack the character to admit that they were clueless about the zeitgeist of the country. So, rather than admit that fact - and then actually learn something - they've tripled down on stupid. The pretzel logic that they're now deploying is nothing short of embarrassing.

[Beasts of England]

I would love to tour the Southland, in a traveling minstrel show...

[Man Tran]

SBW, I think that is a fortran file extension.

I was never hit by the code virus. Saw all those poor schlubs outside the glass cube sifting their Hollerith cards at 1:00 am and knew that was worse than being a drunk. :)

[RattlerGator]

Trump's VP? I think the experienced hand in Congress stuff is a bit of an attempt to throw off the speculation.

Tom Cotton, young attack dog and former United States Army officer, fits the bill. Arkansas boy will absolutely eviscerate the fake Arkansan and dare Bill Clinton to talk some yang.

Cotton stands in stark contrast to the young political class of today. He served, most of them didn't.

Hooahh !!!

[Man Tran]

SBW, I think that is a fortran file extension.

I was never hit by the code virus. Saw all those poor schlubs outside the glass cube sifting their Hollerith cards at 1:00 am and knew that was worse than being a drunk. :)

[Man Tran]

Okaay, not sure how that happened.

[Beasts of England]

I didn't know that, jimmyk - impressive. He did get tight at the end - the double-fault had me screaming at the tube - but it's probably hard not to go conservative with a margin.

[Theo]

B of E --

I think that a fair argument can be made that the elite intellectual conservative types "were clueless about the zeitgeist of the country." But I am not sure that staying true to their core beliefs is "tripling down on stupid." I do not think that they see themselves (nor should they see themselves) as trying to figure out where the "zeitgeist" is heading and get there first and certainly not to follow the zeitgeist wherever it goes.

They hold certain core beliefs and it is quite apparent that Trump does not share many or most of them. It has been argued here that they should put those core beliefs on hold and support Trump because Rodham is worse. As I know Goldberg explained, that is a perfectly fine position for a politician or a party hack to take but it does not make sense for people whose main interest is ideas and not a particular party.

And, as I have suggested above, their personal interest is advanced by not supporting Trump. They are being selfish perhaps, but they are not "tripling down on stupid."

[RattlerGator]

Posted by: JMHanes | June 05, 2016 at 11:10 AM

Great comment re Ali at the end of the last thread.

[rich@gmu]

enjoyed your Pieces this afternoon Clarice.

what to make of then the "what went wrong" piece the GOP produced at the end of 2012 to explain their failures?

and re: the Singer donations ... one can add Zuckerberg and other bath house billionaires to the mix: figure that they saw on the left donations wouldn't matter much and to push the country to the left they had to go over to the other side and push left. Hence Olsen arguing for gay "marriage" as a conservative position and Zuckerberg's Amnesty Only immigration position ...

... but those hills, not worth it, we're saving up to fight for those other hills ...

... further over ... further ...

yea ... that Hill

[clarice]

Yes, JMH--FLynn put into succinct words what I was thinking. It is hard to make a living writing political commentary , but if you haven't the self awareness to know that the views of the big donors aren't the same as the views of the base-- for whom are you actually writing?

[cheerleader]

Battlegator,

This is the first time I've disagreed with you. I think Mr. Trump's success is in part due to his knowing his own limitations and making hires that fill the gap.

He doesn't know the ins and outs of Congress, the procedures, the etiquette, office politics, and all the rest of it, that is a fact. And doesn't have time to learn all that stuff on-the-job, because he wants to get things done quickly, so I think he was telling the truth when he said he needs someone who knows their way around.

Unfortunately, that includes Ryan, whom I don't want to see as VP. But it also includes Sessions, who is ideologically with him.

If he didn't need an experienced hand, I'd be rooting for Dr. Carson as his VP pick because that was my dream ticket at the start. I love the way Dr. Carson thinks things through.

[Truthbetold5]

Who are the big donors at American Thinker?

[Beasts of England]

I appreciate the argument, Theo. I contend that their core beliefs are very much negotiable. Just one example: French argued within the last six months that Cruz should drop out of the race to let Rubio better compete with Trump. If that's not bizarre enough for you, he explicitly questioned Cruz' patriotism if he chose not to do so.

Read that paragraph again if you need to, but don't fall into the trap believing that those turds are either conservative or principled.

[cheerleader]

Sorry, RattleGator, I called you BattleGator because the R looks like a B on my screen.

[boris]

"Read that paragraph again if you need to, but don't fall into the trap believing that those turds are either conservative or principled"

Credential-ism.

They consider themselves quintessential credentialed authorities on "conservatism", hence anything they say is by definition "truly principled conservative".

[Jim Eagle]

Obsessive–compulsive disorder is a mental disorder where people feel the need to check things repeatedly, perform certain routines repeatedly, or have certain thoughts repeatedly. People are unable to control either the thoughts or the activities. Common activities include hand washing, counting of things, and checking to see if a door is locked. Some may have difficulty throwing things out. These activities occur to such a degree that the person's daily life is negatively affected. Often they take up more than an hour a day. Most adults realize that the behaviors do not make sense. The condition is associated with tics, anxiety disorder, and an increased risk of suicide.

Who does that remind you of?