Trump's Taxes

Megan McArdle is a voice of reason.

And for  recap of the circumstances that led to Trump's huge mid-90's loss, we can hear from The Donald himself, in this Art of the Comeback excerpt:

One day, while walking down Fifth Avenue, hand in hand with Marla, I pointed across the street to a man holding a cup and with a Seeing Eye dog. I asked, "Do you know who that is?"

Marla said to me: "Yes, Donald. He's a beggar. Isn't it too bad? He looks so sad!"

I said, "You're right. He's a beggar, but he's worth about $900 million more than me." She looked at me and said, "What do you mean, Donald? How could he possibly be worth $900 million more than you?"

I said, "Let's assume he's worth nothing (only from the standpoint of dollars)--I'm worth minus $900 million."

This was an interesting period of time, because as I told the story I realized in my own mind that what I was saying was true. I also began to realize that I had better get back to work!

And after lots of insight into his multi-faceted greatness (he could have been a great golf coach!) we get this:

By 1993 I began to feel more like Chavez than like Taylor. My personal debt of $975 million had been reduced to $115 million, and I had two years to finish cleaning it up. There was no way to deny that things were going really great. Piece by piece, deal by deal, a beautiful picture was beginning to emerge. What my people and I had already achieved was astonishing.

Those are mere hints, but Trump describes a massive restructuring of the debt in the Trump empire:

My side of the deal looked like this: First, the banks would float me $65 million to keep my head above water. Second, no single bank could lay claim against me for five years (until June 30, 1995). Third, all interest and principal on loans would be deferred until that time. It was a win-win situation for all. I was able to buy some time in hopes that the casino or the real estate markets would rebound. And the banks were able to collateralize their unsecured debt and consolidate the rest.

Somewhere in their, presumably their side of the deal, were personal guarantees or something that led to Trump having what he viewed as $900 million or so in negative net worth; since he later says he paid down his "personal debt of $975 million" it appears that he borrowed a lot of money to cover losses and eventually paid that debt back.

Who knows?

From the Times: Twitter credited the Trump campaign for digging this out of the Times archives from 1995:

After the collapse of the real estate market of the 1980's, Mr. Trump's company was left holding some $8.8 billion in debt, causing his personal net worth to drop to a low of about $1 billion in the red by 1991.

But since then, his fortunes have changed. He continues to pursue the trademark trophy-style projects he is known for, such as a hotel and condominium project on the southwest corner of Central Park that is expected to open by late 1996.

Indeed, about an hour before the luncheon, Mr. Trump and representatives from a Hong Kong development firm huddled over drawings and models for their planned Riverside South development, a 17-building project at the site of the old Pennsylvania Railroad yard on the West Side.

In addition to his real estate ventures, revenues are strong throughout the casino business, where Mr. Trump is one of the most noteworthy operators, owning three gaming establishments in Atlantic City. "The market is quite vibrant," said N. Bruce Turner, a gaming analyst at Solomon Brothers. "It has lifted Donald Trump's vibrancy. Has he come back along with the market? No question."

The piece also includes this mini-gotcha, my emphasis:

In a flattering speech, Lieut. Gov. Betsy McCaughey called Mr. Trump "the comeback kid." Charles A. Gargano, who as chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation is himself considered one of the new powers of the state, joked about a Perot-Trump presidential ticket. "He would be the most loved Vice President since Spiro T. Agnew," he said. Mr. Gargano, who heads the state's economic development efforts, added, "Thank you for your tax dollars."

Trump's businesses pay all sorts pf payroll and property taxes so that may not be a direct reference to Trump's personal income tax.

Comments

[Threadkiller]

First.

[Thomas Collins]

The "dynastic families" and "byzantine networks" of pass through entities phrases in the NY Times article are of course pure BS. Trump's holdings were in different entities to shield liabilities of one venture (such as tort suits and discovery of toxic substances on a site) from the other ventures. Multiple pass through entities don't increase NOLs. But this is a NY Times hit piece, so the ridiculous references are not surprising at all. I don't think we have even seen the worst of what Oligarchic Media is going to be doing. Over the next month, this tax hit piece will have turned out to be Mr. Rogers play in comparison what we will see.

[henry]

Perhaps it got reassigned as corporate debt, rather than personal. Or perhaps the assets regained pre-real estate crash value by the. (Real estate was in the toilet in 1990 as my own losses -- non tax deductible on a primary home-- ate most of my cash pile then). Otherwise that's a heck of a cash flow.

[buccaneer morgan]

carlos slims don't even read their own paper,

http://www.weaselzippers.us/298930-ny-times-raises-questions-now-about-trump-in-1995-but-they-actually-praised-him-then-as-comeback-kid/

[Old Lurker]

Unless you are engaged in commercial real estate where loans of hundreds of millions are common and where ownership, leasing, borrowing, and personal liability details could not be more convoluted, you can have no appreciation at all for how important to every deal is the management of the timing of reportable income and loss, and capital gain and loss is to the viability of each and every investment.

I could care less what any one or even several of Trump's tax returns have to say. The laws and regs are what they are and any developer who does not play them, guided by the best lawyers and accountants he can afford, with the same attention to detail that he uses in the buildings themselves will surely fail. I could also care less whether his net worth is ten billion, or five billion or one billion. Do you know how freaking hard it is to accumulate a billion in assets that are your to keep?

I don't either. But I can dream!

[BeenThereDoneThat]

Hillary & her accomplice, the NYT's, are making hay out of this LEGAL tax maneuver. Trump needs to devise a one-liner boomerang to obliterate this thing.

[Porchlight]

Pathetic. Trump has been talking about this loss for years. He came back from it, which is remarkable in itself.

[Porchlight]

Ann Coulter
@AnnCoulter

Sources say NYTimes working on another bombshell scoop: Trump once drove a car 50 mph in a 50-mph zone.

10:00 PM - 2 Oct 2016

[lyle]

Starting any post with "Megan McArdle is a voice of reason" makes my teeth itch. 😎

[maryrose]

No one cares about the taxis due
Interviewed in Virginia Beach residents are worried about immigration and the economy.
These voters will be pulling the lever for aTrump.
One woman in Williamsburg actually said voting for the first woman president was her goal.

[maryrose]

Tax issue should be in the post.

[lyle]

We already HAVE a first woman president.

[buccaneer morgan]

what I was referring to in the last thread,

https://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=3460

[buccaneer morgan]

and she was all to willing to steal the delphi pension fund,

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/03/hillary_clinton_in_ohio_donald_trump_would_have_been_happy_to_let_the_auto_industry_fail.html

[anonamom; formerly adorable, now deplorable]

for tk:

http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/lester-holt-doesnt-know-jack-about-obama/

[boatbuilder]

Are any of the hand-wringers just the slightest bit concerned that Hillary smugly announces during the debate that Donald didn't pay any taxes for years, and ...wait for it...the NYT comes out within a week with...the tax returns that just suddenly appeared on their doorstep?

Collusion between the NYT and the Hillary campaign? And perhaps the (demonstrably partisan) IRS? Never!! And in any event no big deal, nothing to see here. Trump is rich and says bad things!!

[buccaneer morgan]

as the gipper said, 'its what they think they know is the problem' (I'm paraphrasing) so lester bought the minitrue lie on the economy, and 'stop and frisk'

[boatbuilder]

Good stuff in the McArdle piece (No, really):
" I mean, the Times story is true as far as it goes: Losing $900 million dollars may save you $315 million or so on future or past taxes. But astute readers will have noticed that it is not actually smart financial strategy to lose $900 million in order to get out of paying $315 million to the IRS. Most of us would rather have the other $585 million than a tax bill of $0.

Of course, it would be lovely if you could generate a year’s worth of huge losses in your wildly overleveraged real-estate empire, and then somehow get out of paying your debts, which would leave you a lovely write-off against your suddenly much higher income. The theory that Trump somehow managed to do just that was circulating widely on Twitter yesterday, thanks to a blog post by John Hempton, the chief investment officer of Bronte Capital. The idea seems to be that Trump could have bought his debt for pennies on the dollar, and then parked it in a third-party offshore firm that never collected on it. This theory seemed to have a lot of credibility among folks on social media. Among the tax professionals I spoke to, it had none: the IRS would treat this sort of structure just as it would if a third party had forgiven the debt.

“Look,” says Kovacev, “you put a $900 million loss on your tax return, that’s audit bait. The IRS is going to look into it. The notion that you could just move the money and the IRS wouldn’t ask questions?” There was a sort of incredulous pause before he finally said: “That’s hard to fathom.”

"

[maryrose]

Boatbuilder:
An astute observation and I know there is collusion between Hillary and the Mew York Times and Trump needs to bring up this partnership at the next debate.

[lurkersusie]

Good for this veteran

Military veteran defends Trump, blasts media for twisting PTSD comments -

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/3/military-veteran-defends-trump-blasts-media/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetworkS

[lurkersusie]

Looks like Ohio will be going to Hillary.
The king has spoken!

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17705863/cleveland-cavaliers-forward-lebron-james-explained-why-wrote-op-ed-support-hillary-clinton-president

[Free James D!]

Just read the garbage WaPo screed about Trump's comments on PTSD.

Nothing but lies and distortions to serve the Democrat party agenda. Completely dishonest.

[buccaneer morgan]

a few too many contacts with the headboard I think,

http://babalublog.com/2016/10/03/author-who-glorifies-che-guevara-and-claims-the-stalinist-terrorist-only-executed-murderers-of-women-and-children-is-highly-critical-of-donald-trumps-crimes/

[lurkersusie]

Love him, hate him

Steve Goddard
Steve Goddard – ‏@SteveSGoddard

The @nytimes didn't need to commit a felony. In 1995, they praised Trump for recovering from his losses. @ggreenwald http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/25/nyregion/crowning-the-comeback-king.html …

[buccaneer morgan]

why I'm on team hafter, had they backed him before hand, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess,

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/comment/2016/10/3/is-libya-returning-to-military-rule?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=sf

anderson was all apocalyptic pre our entry into baghdad but he was all copacetic about libya, until it turned out great,

[buccaneer morgan]

like with a sledgehammer?

http://freebeacon.com/politics/clinton-obamacare-needs-fixing/

[lurkersusie]

This is insane

http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/10/publisher-puts-trump-on-cover-of-new-editions-of-hitler-speeches-book/

[PDinDetroit]

Comcast removed the Early Termination Fee. Final bill now paid and account closed. Last call took 20 minutes so not bad.

Almost everything is in a Revocable Living Trust and I am the Successor Trustee. There is a bank account that was supposed to be in the trust (have the original assignment documentation), but never had the ownership changed. It is now a Joint Account between my mom (deceased), myself, and my sister. One of the Insurance Policies paid out in the Trust's Name and included AS ADM (as Administered) with my Name.

The bank will not deposit the check to the account even if my sister is present. So, I believe I have to obtain a TIN (Trust Identification Number), open a Trust Account, and put all monies into the Trust Account. This would likely be best overall, especially for when the house sells. Neither my mother nor the trust would be above $500K, so no death tax.

[Pagar a bacon, ham and sausage supporter]

Maryrose @ 02:58 old thread.
"Hillary attack banks"

IMO, any corporation/company or individual providing money or leftist propaganda spreading to aid Hillary in her criminal efforts ought to be charged with aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise. Just the magnitude of the security violations alone would have a normal person in jail for years,IMO. Not running around the country collecting checks to continue those crimes.

[buccaneer morgan]

that's just crazy, pd in detroit,

http://faustasblog.com/2016/10/colombia-says-no-the-farc/

then again they were coventures on msnbc, so their judgement is suspect,

[daddy]

OK, It's officially mating season for Moose in Anchorage:

Photos: Bull moose tangle on opposite sides of a fence

[maryrose]

Daddy
A moose has been cited as the cause of a person's
death in Alaska.

[Texas Liberty Gal]

Daddy - Alaska is the only state I've never been which is why I really love reading your posts about your state. I will make it there one day, hopefully by going on an Alaskan cruise.

[PDinDetroit]

Daddy - they probably are going wild on Isle Royale then. Lots of moose on the island in Lake Superior.

[buccaneer morgan]

I think of daddy, a little like a cross between steinbeck and michener,

[Beasts of England]

You're damned right, OL! Three of my good friends do commercial / residential development on a very large scale, and they hit peaks and valleys that I could never comprehend, let alone stomach. They're all on top of the world at the moment, but I've seen them struggling more than once to service debt by selling personal holdings.

It pisses me off to no end to see risk takers and creators put under the microscope. Hillary has never risked a damned thing, but has accumulated a nine-figure net. Grrr.

[boatbuilder]

Does anyone else recall all of those thumbsucking WaPo pieces criticizing Obama as an "amateur" politician for wading into the realm of insurance (the realm in which he promised to repair the "broken" system and save us all at least $2500 per year--ha!) for failing to understand the highly nuanced proposition that your automobile liability insurance doesn't pay you for property damage to your own car?

Me neither.

[buccaneer morgan]

anything to this beasts,

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Sabotage-Suggested-In-SpaceX-Explosion-227052-1.html?omhide=true

[buccaneer morgan]

yeah, about that francis,

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/francis-sexual-morality-determined-case-case-even-transgender

[buccaneer morgan]

can some return the solon back to his village,

http://freebeacon.com/politics/biden-embarrassing-that-my-net-worth-less-than-socialist-sanders/

[Threadkiller]

I see TM has added the 1995 Times article. I have a question.

How does someone like Trump, on their way to a catastrophic year calculate estimated taxes?

At that level of income, is he still giving the IRS money on a quarterly or monthly basis until his taxes are complete?

How does that work?

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Trump just pointed out both George Soros and Warren Buffett claimed losses as large or larger than his.

[Threadkiller]

It may look like three questions..

[Beasts of England]

I talked to my buddy who was the co-founder of SpaceX last week, and he just laughed. That's my view, as well. Launch vehicles explode - sometimes controlled (successes), and sometimes uncontrolled (failures).

Excuse making to cover a 'routine' anomaly.

[jimmyk]

How does someone like Trump, on their way to a catastrophic year calculate estimated taxes?

My understanding is from personal taxes, as opposed to corporate, but if you are 99% sure you won't owe any tax, you don't need to pay estimated taxes, regardless of your income level.

[Texas Liberty Gal]

After tonights rally in Loveland, CO I doubt that the tax return bruhaha will be much of an issue. He is knocking it out of the park in explaining everything..

[buccaneer morgan]

I find the whole thing, very squirrel, tlg, al ap as rush would call it, rarely notes what goes in those rallies, except when they perceive a gaffe,

[Threadkiller]

Thanks, Jimmy.

[Captain Hate]

can some return the solon back to his village

Remember when people acted like that paste eating imbecile would be unbeatable?

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Texas Liberty Gal,

He did even better at Pueblo this afternoon.

That rally was great! He's also pretty funny!

[Texas Liberty Gal]

He said the temp in the arena was 95 because there were so many people there. It does look packed!!

[Texas Liberty Gal]

MM - What did he do in Pueblo that is better then in Loveland?

[lurkersusie]

Now here we go. He started his Twitter rampage
after Trumps comments about Hillary being
faithful.

Michael Reagan
Michael Reagan – ‏@ReaganWorld

My father would not support this kind of campaign,if this is what the Republican Party wants leave us Reagans out.Nancy would vote for HRC https://twitter.com/mjclaxden/status/782813480780914688 …

[Threadkiller]

Mike Reagan can suck it.

[lurkersusie]

Here we go, long negative Twitter rampage after
Trumps comments

Michael Reagan
Michael Reagan – ‏@ReaganWorld

No way do I or would my father support this garbage.Trump on Clinton: 'I don't even think she's loyal to Bill' http://politi.co/2cKeCxR

[lurkersusie]

Sorry for double post

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Oh, screw Michael Reagan. He's dined out on his father's reputation for years.

I don't care what he says.

Texas Liberty Gal,

More details and explanation of the real estate crisis, plus he trashed the Presidential debate Commission! It was great!

Watch the replay on YouTube. Great entertainment and a super convincing speech.

[Threadkiller]

Sorry, Mike. All you ever had were daddy's coattails.

#CircleJerkWillAndKrauthammer

[Beasts of England]

Michael who?

[Threadkiller]

The other gay Reagan, BoE.

[buccaneer morgan]

he had a whiplash reaction to the huntress, as well, having initially supported her,

yes, the debates are full ackbar 'its a trap' maybe pence can get off the forest moon, tomorrow,

[Beasts of England]

lol, TK!!

[Beasts of England]

But, seriously - I haven't heard him mentioned in a decade. I assumed he was dead...

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

I figure he's desperate for income and probably got some Hillary cash.

I trust only a handful of people in elected office or the punditry. Michael Reagan is not on that list. Where was he for the last 8 years?

[Threadkiller]

He makes a monthly appearance on a local morning show here.

He is witty but not too bright.

[Captain Hate]

yeah, about that francis,

In fairness to Frankie, I don't think the headline accurately summarized what he said; although he has such maddening ambiguity in nearly every statement.

[buccaneer morgan]

probably, whereabouts are you, captain?

[Captain Hate]

Was that tweet one of Michael's comedy routines? It's so hard to tell.

[Captain Hate]

I'm still at home, narc; AZ in less than 24 hours.

[buccaneer morgan]

I think she should hire bryan mills,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3820536/Was-8-5m-Kardashian-heist-inside-job-French-police-probe-Eastern-European-gang-insider-help-shaken-Kim-returns-NY-gunmen-tied-MARBLE-bathtub.html

[buccaneer morgan]

he's a partner with michael hayden, quelle surprise,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3820160/Key-Bill-Clinton-Whitewater-prosecutor-backs-HILLARY-says-90s-issues-important-tackling-terrorism.html

[Captain Hate]

Right, Chertoff, because Rodham has been outstanding on security issues.

Idiot.

[Threadkiller]

Names keep getting added to the list of colluding aholes that got us where we are today.

#Vast

[GUS]

Tk, Trump would not pay quarterly, if he was fairly sure he had losses. The Feds don't penalize you for losing money. Yet.

[Threadkiller]

Thanks Gus.

[buccaneer morgan]

yes, tk, I trust james banford, as far as I can throw him, but hayden never fully explain what he did with that message from yemen to the hijackers,

http://observer.com/2016/10/nypd-says-chelsea-bombers-choice-of-location-likely-random/

doing their best chief wiggums impression,

[BeenThereDoneThat]

Here's Bill Still's polling for those who can't buy the MSM 'Hillary leading' polls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm3zIf9r6qI

[GUS]

The whole Trump tax squirrel has worked it's magic. The Country believes Trump did something wrong. In reality, someone ILLEGALLY POSSESSED and had 3 pages of NOTHINGBURGER Published in American Pravda. Americans' love Pravda.
And they love KIM KARDASHIAN. The CONSTITUTION and RULE of LAW....not so much.
We are watching our Country melt. Up is Down, Bad is Good, and Trannies have the NCAA fighting for their right to PEE where they choose.

[Captain Hate]

This has been a very revealing year, TK.

[GUS]

Hey Tk, I'm glad I quit when I did last night.
I'm sorry Rich pissed you off, and I didn't want to escalate things. It really wasn't my fight, and I do consider you a friend here. Sorry.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Gus,

Take heart. Am looking around here and lots of trump support from people who don't have internet, including brother of my neighbor and my sisters, who rarely look at anything on the internet except cute pet videos.

All have noticed the media's bias.

What will happen remains to be seen. I think trump knows what he's doing. Speeches today in Colorado both explained the tax thing and went after Hillary for corruption, and I mean REALLY went after her.

Go watch those rally videos and don't let the Wisconsin NeverTrumper radio people get you down.

[buccaneer morgan]

yes, it's like a family gathering during 'festivus' and the 'airing of grievances,'

responding back to zaphod,

There's a reason pro-American activists have been living rent free in President Obama's head these past eight years. Some may feel guilty about the running tab, but I'll just add it to his doubling of the national debt to $20 trillion. This far left administration is the overseer of a piled-on $200 trillion unfunded liabilities bill that's destroying our children's future, and THAT'S what should occupy the President's headspace, not some hockey mom from Alaska.

[Janet S.]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1349262261751385&set=a.137144629629827.22685.100000028723993&type=3&theater

Can you guys see this pic?
This was from the wedding my daughter went to over the weekend. It was at the Trump Winery. The other side was monogrammed for the bride & groom & had the date.

Make Marriage Great Again!

Hah!

[Janet S.]

Naomi said the groom made a comment about there being a lot of Deplorables there & everyone cheered. :)

[Beasts of England]

From a slightly different tack: if this is their October Surprise, they got nothin'...

[buccaneer morgan]

you know it seems familiar, can you spot me a vowel,

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/717229/bomb-Austria-Arabic-police-Floridsdorf-threat-man-Egyptian-detonate-flat-evacuate

[Threadkiller]

No problem Gus. Thanks.

[GUS]

Thanks Miss Marple, I am hopeful and optomistic. We need to turn this around, but it won't be easy.
I no longer listen to Charlie Sykes. His pompous attitude bores me. You know, one of TRUMPS LISTED Supreme Court options, is Sykes ex-second-wife Diane. She is on the 11th circuit in Chicago, if I am not mistaken, and she is a former Wisconsin Supreme Court justice. Sykes loves to use the term. "Posing for Holy Pictures". He thinks he is ABOVE Trump.
Rodham is NOT an option.

[RattlerGator]

Here's Bill Still's polling for those who can't buy the MSM 'Hillary leading' polls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm3zIf9r6qI

Posted by: BeenThereDoneThat | October 03, 2016 at 09:34 PM

Good job by that guy, BTDT. The *entire* approach by the opposition in this sprint to the finish is to knock down the optimism of the Republican voters who haven't given in to the nonsense.

It's not going to work. Keep the faith. They can't cheat us out of this election, the turnout is going to be too large.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2016/10/03/jock-journalists-condemn-all-lives-matter-protestor-as-racist-then-cops-take-off-his-gorilla-mask/?utm_campaign=feed%3a+breitbart+%28breitbart+news%29&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=feedburner

[Threadkiller]

The *entire* approach by the opposition in this sprint to the finish is to knock down the optimism of the Republican voters who haven't given in to the nonsense.

Optimistic Birthers agree! Same shit was pulled on us by the likes of Savanna Guthrie.

[Deplorable Momto2]

According to Reddit - Assage is going to announce something at 3 a.m. EST. He is going to use live video rather than the balcony (apparently to avoid drones!)

Who will be awake at 3 a.m.?

[Beasts of England]

It's nice to own the enthusiasm gap for a change, isn't it, RattlerGator?

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Deplorable Momto2,

I don't know if I can stay up that late. I might go to bed and get up early. Fortunately, I have no errands or car pool stuff on my calender.

[Threadkiller]

I wonder if that guy is allowed to wear an Obama rodeo clown mask, MM

[Threadkiller]

I picked a good night to have a bad back.

I should be awake.

[Captain Hate]

It's nice to own the enthusiasm gap for a change, isn't it, RattlerGator?

This is what happens when you have a non Tomato Can as a candidate who isn't afraid of his/her shadow.

[boris]

Timeless: Scotty from Suits and Max headroom in a time warp version of Stargate.

[Captain Hate]

Lifting engine blocks w/o a block and tackle, TK?

[GUS]

Rodeo Mask.....RACIST.
Gorilla Mask....RACIST.
CHIMPY BUSHITLER......not RACIST.