It's Legal If The President Does It. Or Is It?

Interesting point/counterpoint on whether the President can engage in obstruction of justice.

Prof. Dershowitz:

On "Fox & Friends," Dershowitz countered that Trump had the constitutional power to fire FBI Director James Comey and to tell the Justice Department who to investigate and who not to investigate.

"If Congress were ever to charge him with obstruction of justice for exercising his constitutional authority under Article II, we'd have a constitutional crisis," Dershowitz said.

He explained that Congress would have to demonstrate "clearly illegal acts" on Trump's part, such as former President Richard Nixon paying "hush money," telling people to lie and destroying evidence in the Watergate scandal.

"There's never been a case in history where a president has been charged with obstruction of justice for merely exercising his constitutional authority. That would cause a constitutional crisis in the United States," Dershowitz said, adding that he hopes Special Counsel Robert Mueller understands that before he considers bringing an indictment or recommending that the matter be referred to Congress.

Judge Napolitano, who differs but not by much:

On "America's Newsroom," Judge Andrew Napolitano came down on the side of Feinstein.

He explained that if Trump asked Comey to end the investigation into Flynn for a non-corrupt purpose - such as if he felt sympathy for his former national security adviser or he wanted the bureau to use its resources on more important matters - it's not obstruction.

However, if Trump did it for a corrupt purpose - such as trying to protect himself or his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, from what Flynn might say - then it is obstruction and there is no presidential immunity, Napolitano said.

"Obstruction of justice is a crime no matter who commits it, if done for a corrupt purpose. It's also an impeachable offense," he said, adding that the charge is "intentionally not easy to prove" for a prosecutor.

Of course, from what we have seen so far Flynn has pled guilty to lying about the commission of a non-crime, so unless Mueller has more, impeaching and removing Trump for "obstructing" the investigation of non-criminal activity will be perceived by many as a Constitutional coup.

Comments

[bunky]

Fire Molar

[henry]

Only legal if a "D" label is on the President. That is scribbled in a left-handed scrawl on the back of the Constitution.

[Appalled]

bunky:

Sounds like you need a dentist.

[bunky]

I try to floss daily. Its just that dried out old liberal looks like a rotten tooth.

[exdemocrat]

"impeaching and removing Trump for "obstructing" the investigation of non-criminal activity will be perceived correctly by many as a Constitutional coup."

FIFY, Mr. M

[Porchlight]

>left-handed scrawl

Heh.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

I am posting this from the end of the last thread as it is pertinent to Mr. Maguire's opening essay:

I maintain this FBI thing has legs with the voting public.

My Bernie-loving democrat daughter (who despises Hillary and is a subset of the dem electorate) said that having anti-Trump agents in the investigation was wrong, and if they couldn't find impartial people, they should at least have evenly balanced pro and anti Trump people.

I think she is a good example of how a lot of her voting group will think.

I also have hope that when she gets a very hefty tax refund she will realize what good President Trump is doing.

[Momto2]

We can all use a laugh or a smile:

Husband and Wife Christmas Shopping
A couple were in a busy shopping center just before Christmas. The wife suddenly noticed that her husband was missing and as they had a lot to do, so she called him on the mobile.
The wife said " Where are you, you know we have lots to do."
He said "You remember the jewelers we went into about 10 years ago, and you fell in love with that diamond necklace? I could not afford it at the time and I said that one day I would get it for you?"
Little tears started to flow down her cheek and she got all
choked up…
"Yes, I do remember that shop." she replied.
"Well I am in the gun shop next door to that."

[Extraneus]

So Trump's personal lawyer claims that he tweeted under Trump's name? Seems unbelievable.

[Extraneus]

lol, Mom.

[Captain Hate on the iPhone]

The most shocking thing I learned on the last thread was magnesium turned Gus into a homo.

[derwill]

I thought that there exists a video of an Obama administration official saying at the time that they were notified of Flynn's conversations with the Russian ambassador and had approved them.

If so that completely cuts the legs out of any accusation of a Logan Act violation. So no crime=no obstruction.

I swear what happens is, some pundit conjures up a fantasy of how Trump can be impeached, the fantasy gets repeated over and over by the MSM, a mass hysteria bubble gets created and the next thing you know even people on our side start buying into it. Then something happens to burst the hysteria bubble, and reality sets back in for a little while, until a new idiot comes out with yet another fantasy of how Trump can be impeached and we start the cycle all over again.

In the meantime, I'm wondering what other OIG investigations got started 11 months ago.

[Porchlight]

Haha, Momto2. Sharing that one. :)

[Jane]

Ex,Too me that was the worst part of that story. It felt like he knew something was wrong and was covering up. Hard to imagine Trump would let anyone tweet on his account.

[Jane]

To me (duh)

[derwill]

I thought Trump was at a fund raiser when the tween went out, ext. So unless there is some way to time release a tweet, whoever sent that out it wasn't Trump.

[lyle]

I posted that joke last year, mom, except the gag line was the husband was in a Hooters next door. Both work.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/trump-impeachment/547358/?utm_source=feed

The Atlantic says the chances of Trump being impeached are dropping.

[henry]

If it isn't Trump behind the tweets (but is a psy ops team), another press narrative just blew up in their faces.

[Thomas Collins]

Impeach Trump for letting his lawyer use his Twitter account. Hell, that's a more justifiable reason for impeaching Trump than Trump's canning Comey. Would you provide your lawyer access to your Twitter account?

[exdemocrat]

from a Podesta memo, proposed action items for the then upcoming Obama transition, include the following:

"1) President elect and senior officials begin confidential policy consultations with key actors in US and abroad." (my emph.)

h/t Wikileaks

[Dave (in MA)]

https://www.google.com/search?q=scheduled+tweets

[Threadkiller]

The most shocking thing I learned on the last thread was magnesium turned Gus into a homo.

Fagnesium?

[Porchlight]

So Trump's personal lawyer claims that he tweeted under Trump's name? Seems unbelievable.

Not quite - he says he drafted the tweet and gave it to Dan Scavino.

[Old Lurker]

"The most shocking thing I learned on the last thread was magnesium turned Gus into a homo."

And OL into an optimist?

[exdemocrat]

Obama's transition behavior was an F.U. to Trump and the electorate:

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-obama-foreign-policy-231188

[lyle]

Not to reopen any tempest over VDH, but in his essay today at AmGreatness he actually writes this:

George W. Bush and Barack Obama were...[my elipsis] politically savvy and hardball brawlers

WTF?

[Jim Eagle]

derwil,

I saw somewhere (here?) that it was the State Dept. who gave the waiver to talk to the Russians and other countries during the transition.

[narciso]

This was from last year:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/state-department-has-no-problem-with-trump-teams-russia-contacts/article/2611810

[daddy]

Good Morning!

Rush on fire this AM. He is fully on board with the analysis by McCarthy that this is all nothing but an Impeachment effort, therefore it is nothing but Politics as usual and the Left being the Left.

Rush did some excellent segments in Hour 1 about Brian Ross's lie about "Candidate" Trump that tanked the Market. He has also mentioned about 3 or 4 times that the major Alphabet Networks have not reported on the piss poor "correction" from Brian Ross, that it was not "Candidate" Trump, it was "President Elect" Trump. Rush says they are intentionally not telling their viewers about that correction because they want that earlier fake news meme to remain in the heads of the LIV's and the Dartmouth sophomores all across America, because it damages Trump in the minds of millions.

[narciso]

This is the update:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/03/flashback-obama-state-department-no-problem-trump-transition-team-contacting-foreign-official/amp/

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Ever since Firefox did their latest update it is running very slow. Does anyone else have that problem?

[Momto2]

From WaPo Nov. 16, 2016

The transition team announced Wednesday that Trump and Pence have taken phone calls from world leaders from more than 20 countries, including China, Russia, Australia, Japan and Britain. Traditionally, a president-elect names a few senior officials who can speak to world leaders before the inauguration. In Obama’s case, he chose former secretary of state Madeleine Albright and former congressman Jim Leach (R-Iowa), said one official who was involved in the process.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/11/16/trump-transition-team-meetings-with-pentagon-state-department-could-begin-friday/?utm_term=.5618c18a130d

[matt - deplore me if you must]

So let's connect the dots even further. Samantha Power and Susan Rice were unmasking all sorts of Trump related individuals illegally from mid-2016 or so onward. These records of conversations were circulated widely within the Obama administration.

Then, we find that the administration and FBI then concocted a Logan Act excuse for an investigation, perhaps the weakest possible excuse.

Comey then sandbags sessions into special prosecutor, all the while knowing of the chicanery going on behind the scenes.

Mueller far exceeds his authority as special prosecutor investigating Russian collusion while it is staring him in the face on the Dem side of the aisle.

I would say that there is almost enough evidence to prosecute not only individual felonies but conspiracy as well. This is sick and disgusting.

[Jack is Back!(On his iPhone)]

Have to post this on my iPhone. If love dogs, loyalty and service, you’ll love this, Belgian Army battalion sends on of their Mechelen Schaapers MP dogs to retirement. He stands for 10 seconds during the Salute.

http://m.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20171203_03221333//

[daddy]

Rush Hour 3 begins with Strzok, so the 22 million EIBer's will be up to speed by the end of today's Program. Rush himself appears fully up to speed on Strzok, so he has done his homework well over the weekend.

[exdemocrat]

Just to be clear - the Obama DoS did not grant a "waiver." Toner's response shows that what Trump's people were doing was simply standard operating procedure.

The only question that remains of interest to me is why did Flynn volunteer to talk to the FBI in order to lie about it? Unlike Ig, my razor of occam tells me there was a purpose to that as yet unknown.

[Momto2]

Love that, JIB! What a gorgeous dog!

[henry]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/937741488645070849

Interesting speculation on people Flynn brought to NSC...

[Extraneus]

he has done his homework well over the weekend

Which can only mean he reads the JOM comments section. Probably posts here, too.

But as whom?

[Account Deleted]

From Last Thread:

As an established and experienced US intelligence official, *ALL* of Flynn's phone communications are listened to. He's had REAL jobs in the intelligence bureaucracy. And he's a trained spook.

That some *admininstration official* under The Rat was made aware that Flynn was talking to "Russia" is a yawn/so what item of fact because it was Flynn's duty to be talking to foreign officials.

The Rat's intel people (Clapper and Brennan most likely) drew the line in behind Flynn to make it seem that he was this wild-eyed spook who was making deals with the Russians about sanctions on behalf of president-elect Trump.

According to the Twitter feeds cited earlier this morning those calls were supposedly made before DJT took office in January. No crime. Just an opp for The Rat to smear a member of Team Trump and create more smoke to keep the attention off of the high crimes and misdemeanors of the Rat's Deep State operatives and beneficiaries.

Let's keep our eyes on that fat little birdie that's about to get et by a big bad OIG report.

[Jim Eagle]

All of this crap coming out of Mueller and his nest of Clinton vipers reminds me of the team who is behind decides to set up on 4th down as if they are going to go for it when all they are doing is trying to pull the defense off-side and get a penalty first down.

So my adivce to the Trump team is DON'T FLINCH!

[Old Lurker]

Matt "I would say that there is almost enough evidence to prosecute not only individual felonies but conspiracy as well."

RICO the entire Left.

[Dave (in MA)]

Oh, sure. Blame the magnesium.

[Porchlight]

Key part of henry's 2:14 link, IMO:

33) January 24th, 2017 - Flynn has his meeting with the FBI. Flynn had the legal right not to answer the question, yet rather than do that he knowingly lies to the FBI about a call which a) he knows to have been legal, and b) he knows the FBI has a complete transcript of already.

34) January 26th, 2017 - Sally Yates (per her congressional testimony in May) informs White House Counsel that Flynn is now vulnerable to Russian blackmail because he lied to the FBI and to Pence about the contents of the call.

35) It's important to note here that Sally Yates did not have TS/SCI clearance and thus could not legally read the contents of Flynn's call unless Flynn's name had been unmasked and shared with her by 44's administration.

36) Also note that Flynn was cleared of any illegalities with regards to the contents of the call itself - meaning, there was nothing illegal or treasonous in the transcripts for which Flynn could be charged. This is why he only got hit with Process Crimes.

37) "We weren’t the only ones that knew all of this, that the Russians also knew about what General Flynn had done and the Russians also knew that General Flynn had misled the vice president and others,” Yates said.

I think we are going to learn more about the unmasking soon.

[Jim Eagle]

Momto2,

Wasn't that cool. The Mechlen's are the blonde Shepards compared to the Malinois and German variety. Bred specifically as search & rescue and police dogs. Very smart and loyal.

[Captain Hate]

That's a really good analogy, JiB. Or is that a simile?

[matt - deplore me if you must]

We may be able to RICO Obama, Powers, the Rat, Rice, Clinton, and a few others if we are very, very lucky.

But the trail of evidence is surely interesting.

Lerner wants to seal her testimony. If I were the judge I would read it carefully to see if that is in the public interest.

These vermin have been hiding behind legalisms and breaking the law from the outset. Using the National Endowment for the Arts as a propaganda tool, the IRS to intimidate and punish their enemies, indicting reporters who dared to investigate the wrong party; this is all of a whole. This is the way the Chicago Machine works.

[Jane]

Henry,

I'm not sure I understood all that, but if Trump is running a counter operation perhaps to expose the DOJ and FBI, that would be more fun than anything.

Can't imagine that he has the time.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

henry,

Thanks for finding that unrolled thread at 2:14. I was just about to go back to the Twitter thread and read it, so your link made it a whole lot easier!

[Captain Hate]

JiB, I see the three types at dog parks. They are gorgeous dogs and I think they finally got the blood lines straightened out so the German Shepherds aren't so sketchy behavior wise.

[henry]

Jane, I think the point of that was Adm Rogers was running the op, with Flynn up front as bait. I assume Trump gave them permission to do so.

[Account Deleted]

Metaphor, CH.

Here's the simile:

Trump is like a quarterback losing in the 4th quarter who lines up his team hoping to draw the defense offsides.

Poorly written but you get the point. Right?

GUS! is a homo? Wha? Hard to keep up today.

[Account Deleted]

oh wait. Analogy. Yes yes. I need to go back to bed.

[Account Deleted]

So how does the AWAN Bros Spy Ring fit into all of this spook stuff?

What did Clapper and Brennan know and when did they know it? Or did they broker the sales going on?

THis is what this is all about right? Selling secrets and laundering cash to buy elections?

No?

[narciso]

Flynn was an operator not an intelligence officer he wrote the manual on Afghan operations that Petraeus and mccrystal relied upon.

Muggy mac removes all doubt on the spew.

[Captain Hate]

Lerner wants to seal her testimony. If I were the judge I would read it carefully to see if that is in the public interest.

Not sure how admitting using a state agency against private citizens sharing a political philosophy of adherence to the Constitution could be construed as not of interest to the public.

[Porchlight]

This also caught my eye from henry's link:

>"But Mr. Strzok was reassigned this summer from Mr. Mueller’s investigation to the F.B.I.’s human resources department, where he has been stationed since."

HR. Classic reassignment graveyard.

[Threadkiller]

Flynn is now vulnerable to Russian blackmail because he lied to the FBI and to Pence about the contents of the call.

Did Yates mention that Flynn lied to the FBI? If so, Trump's tweet is of zero consequence.

[Captain Hate]

GUS! is a homo? Wha? Hard to keep up today.

He should've dreamed about Steffi Graf.

[Extraneus]

Russia: 'Absurd' to say Michael Flynn influenced Putin's decision to delay retaliation

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s team on Monday rejected the idea that former Trump advisor Michael Flynn influenced Russia's decision in December to delay retaliating against U.S. sanctions imposed by the Obama administration.

"That’s totally absurd," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Monday, according to state-run media.

Flynn’s reported conversations with then-Ambassador Sergey Kislyak sparked a political controversy that consumed his career in President Trump’s administration and ultimately led to his indictment. The retired three-star general was fired for lying to Vice President Mike Pence about whether he had discussed sanctions policy with Kislyak, and he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about those conversations in court documents published last week.

Peskov maintained that Putin was unmoved by Flynn's effort to convince Russia not to retaliate against the U.S. sanctions, which were imposed just before Trump was set to take office.

"Whatever information Putin receives from his ambassadors does not concern anyone else,” he said. “The president makes decisions entirely on his own. He is guided exclusively by Russia’s national interests, as he has said himself more than once.”

[Threadkiller]

Has anyone drawn the short straw that mandates they suffer through Hannity's Tick Tock Teasers?

I have no intention of listening to the blowhard.

[macthenaif]

TK @02:35 PM

Yates said Flynn told the FBI the same thing he told Pence.

[Jane]

Breaking!

Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner claimed during the U.N. General Assembly on Monday that a former Obama administration official attempted to convince Argentina to “provide the Islamic Republic of Iran with nuclear fuel.” The claim was seemingly overshadowed by President Barack Obama’s high-stakes dealings with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/09/30/president-of-argentina-launches-bombshell-iran-claim-against-obama-admin-official-on-the-floor-of-u-n-general-assembly

[matt - deplore me if you must]

The Chicago Lurker is Keyser Soze.

[Captain Hate]

More donk monkey spankers:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Breaking911/status/937763074425212928

[Buckeye]

I also have hope that when she gets a very hefty tax refund she will realize what good President Trump is doing.

Glad to hear that my likely increase will go to a worthwhile cause:)

[Buckeye]

The most shocking thing I learned on the last thread was magnesium turned Gus into a homo.

Unpossible.

But a dude with a collection of 100 or more guitars would be credible:)

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Captain Hate,

I am befuddled by the numbers of sexual deviants in the dem party. I knew there were some, but this "pervert a day" news is mind-boggling.

[Buckeye]

Rush says they are intentionally not telling their viewers about that correction because they want that earlier fake news meme to remain in the heads of the LIV's and the Dartmouth sophomores all across America, because it damages Trump in the minds of millions.

daddy, I thought your daughter was at least a junior???

[Old Lurker]

Hell, MM, they could have a Perversion of the Day contest and it would last a month or two at least. Just imagine all the genders and all the combos they have...and that's before counting inanimate objects and animals.

[Frau Zorn]

Clarice - Logan Act: the ONE and only *private* person I know of who violates the "Act-Nobody-Uses" is Barack Obama who is presently touring the world meeting with foreign leaders. His agenda? It is *not* to support the present administration.

Mr. Frau, who keeps me out of the slammer and sane, points out that the last president while still a very private person opened up a never before seen Office of the President-Elect. Was that a legal office? Of course not. By creating his own, theatrical office, did Obama think he had a waiver from Logan Act accusations in dealing directly with the Iranian government that the then-current administration had pronounced "an evil government"? So much for the Dems' "only one president at a time" talking point.

[Frau Zorn]

I forgot to end with Femall.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Frau,

I remember that because they made up a seal for him to put on the front of his podium!

Very creepy!

[henry]

Does Obama travel with an "Ex President" seal now?

[Jim Eagle]

Correction to my 2:22 back to Momto2: Mechelse are Malinois since the French for the Flemish town of Mechelen is Malines. They are all the same and have the most notable history of military dogs anywhere. One was used by the SEALS in the Osama bin Laden raid and killing.

[Captain Hate]

Ugh, that reminds me, henry, I saw a kumurshul featuring the JEF, Slick, Adultery of the Heart, Poppy and GWB about giving to some charity.

Really killed the Christmas spirit.

[Buckeye]

During the run up to the election our local progressives:

https://www.uaprogressiveaction.com/

were having a meeting at one of the local parks where I walk the dog on occasion.

Just by the dogs growling behavior, I would estimate the pervert percentage north of 50.

He only likes "regular guys":)

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/democratic-leaders-chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-agree-to-trump-meeting/article/2642475

I hope he lays the evidence of corruption out in front of them.

[Buckeye]

dog's.....but you already figured that out.

[narciso]

I thought you were being metaphorical, captain.

[Thraedkiller]

Jane's Breaking link looks like it is a couple years old.

[Thraedkiller]

Yates said Flynn told the FBI the same thing he told Pence.

isn't the same as

Sally Yates (per her congressional testimony in May) informs White House Counsel that Flynn is now vulnerable to Russian blackmail because he lied to the FBI and to Pence about the contents of the call.

If Yates testified that she told the Whitehouse that Flynn lied to both the VP and the FBI, then Trumps current tweet needs no damage control.

[Old Lurker]

"Jane's Breaking link looks like it is a couple years old."

Don't you think there should be a LAW that requires a date for anything and everything discoverable on the Internet? Not much is more frustrating that having to go down a page or two of Google links looking for current ones.

[Thraedkiller]

I think my 2:35 question could have been more clear.

Sorry.

[Threadkiller]

I usually look for a date in the address, OL.

"...2015/09/30/..." stands out if you make it a habit.

[henry]

Sure, a 2 year old link. Somehow I missed that Kirshner said Obama wanted her to help Iran with their nukes. (Or by "former Obama administration official" does she mean Hillary?) Toss in file of stuff the MSM buried with a pillow.

[Old Lurker]

TK, often there is no date in the address, right?

[daddy]

Haven't started catch-up yet but just heard Hannity on radio say that Strzok was one of the 2 FBI interviewing Officers when Flynn told his lie.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

daddy,

I believe that is new information. I don't think we knew that, only that he was the head of the investigating unit and also the connection to Fusion GPS and the interviewer for Hillary over July 4th.

[daddy]

Miss M,

Hannity just said it in the first few minutes of hIs Radio Show. I'm putting my headsets back on now to hear if there is anything else.

[jimmyk]

Can't keep up, but from the last thread, OL: "Well, if you like those things, or any of those things, and if you'd like to see more of it next six years, why would you vote for anybody unwilling to pledge to stop impeachment talk cold so we can focus on more good things, or why would you bother sending me any more deep-staters like Flake or McCain or Corker or Ryan or McConnell?"

Along those lines, I read somewhere where Trump is persuading Hatch to run for reelection to keep Romney from winning that seat.

[derwill]

I think all this caterwauling by the Dems is that they've figured out that the FBI corruption poop is about to hit the fan, and they're trying to obfuscate things by getting enough voters convinced that Trump is corrupt too, that he broke laws, too, so really what difference at this point does it make?

[Jim Eagle]

Kirshner is an unapologetic Peronista and worked diligently with her hand place intelligence/security services to protect any Argentine involvment in the Iranian bombing of the Jewish Cultural Center in BA.

She would fit right in with Zippy's formulistic friends.

[daddy]

If we believe Dershowitz and McCarthy etc, that "impeachment" is a political act, an act of perceptions, not in this case a criminal act provable in a court of Law, Strzok is a "dirty cop" in that scenario, like the "dirty cop" Michael Corleone puts a bullet in the head of in the GodFather. All Strzok's biases, and the affair, and the E-mails, and his potentially illegal misuse of his position and power to materially aid Team Hillary, all add into that "dirty cop" perception. So if impeachment is a perception process, Strzok with all that baggage being the guy who we now find out interviewed Flynn for the lie, that becomes even a bigger part of this Anti-Trump bias perception shading the impeachment process.

Show us the E-Mails. Dirty cop Strzok being the FBI Agent that Flynn lied to will play on the perception side of the ledger, regardless how it plays on the Legal side of the house.

Hannity says he is going to have Sara Carter and I think the other guy on later to discuss what they have just found out about Strzok.

[BlueOx]

If this calculator is anywhere close to correct, we'll be saving somewhere north of $1600 on our taxes. And we won't have to spend time itemizing to do it.

http://taxplancalculator.com/

According to Larry Summers, this will likely kill me.

[jimmyk]

The thing about Hatch vs Romney was at Althouse:

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/12/donald-trump-is-going-all-out-to.html

[Jim Eagle]

BlueOx,

That calculator has to be adjusted for the new exemption. People who itemized before may not now that the exemption increased 100%.

[daddy]

And since we are talking about "perceptions" it would also be of interest to identify the FISA Judges who approved these Obama era wiretaps of Trumps Campaign, and what these FISA Judges political leanings are.

[daddy]

JiB,

I like your analogy at 02:16.