It's Legal If The President Does It. Or Is It?

Interesting point/counterpoint on whether the President can engage in obstruction of justice.

Prof. Dershowitz:

On "Fox & Friends," Dershowitz countered that Trump had the constitutional power to fire FBI Director James Comey and to tell the Justice Department who to investigate and who not to investigate.

"If Congress were ever to charge him with obstruction of justice for exercising his constitutional authority under Article II, we'd have a constitutional crisis," Dershowitz said.

He explained that Congress would have to demonstrate "clearly illegal acts" on Trump's part, such as former President Richard Nixon paying "hush money," telling people to lie and destroying evidence in the Watergate scandal.

"There's never been a case in history where a president has been charged with obstruction of justice for merely exercising his constitutional authority. That would cause a constitutional crisis in the United States," Dershowitz said, adding that he hopes Special Counsel Robert Mueller understands that before he considers bringing an indictment or recommending that the matter be referred to Congress.

Judge Napolitano, who differs but not by much:

On "America's Newsroom," Judge Andrew Napolitano came down on the side of Feinstein.

He explained that if Trump asked Comey to end the investigation into Flynn for a non-corrupt purpose - such as if he felt sympathy for his former national security adviser or he wanted the bureau to use its resources on more important matters - it's not obstruction.

However, if Trump did it for a corrupt purpose - such as trying to protect himself or his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, from what Flynn might say - then it is obstruction and there is no presidential immunity, Napolitano said.

"Obstruction of justice is a crime no matter who commits it, if done for a corrupt purpose. It's also an impeachable offense," he said, adding that the charge is "intentionally not easy to prove" for a prosecutor.

Of course, from what we have seen so far Flynn has pled guilty to lying about the commission of a non-crime, so unless Mueller has more, impeaching and removing Trump for "obstructing" the investigation of non-criminal activity will be perceived by many as a Constitutional coup.

Comments

[Account Deleted]

An interesting comment from the Mueller partisans article from DebinGA 6:06p--->

"I agree that it seems pretty silly that Mueller would waste time on a petty charge of lying to the FBI if that was all he had in his arsenal. I freely admit I'm guessing here -- but General Flynn worked as a lobbyist and consultant to the government of Turkey and did not register as a foreign agent until after he'd been doing that for quite some time. Before he registered, he may have conspired to have Fethullah Gülen kidnapped -- not legally extradited -- from the U.S. and taken back to Turkey, where he would very likely be murdered as Magnitsky was in Russia. Turkey's head of state was getting impatient with the extradition process, and his claim that Gülen heads a terrorist organization is doubtful. Recep Erdogan isn't quite a dictator, but he sure is authoritarian.

If General Flynn really did do that, and Mueller has evidence to that effect, he'd be in a position to say to Flynn, "Which would you rather?

Be charged with a comparatively minor offence of lying to the FBI, and be guaranteed lenient treatment even over that, or charged with trying to have a foreign national resident in the U.S. illegally snatched to oblige a Turkish head of state for whom you were working as an unregistered foreign agent, which is illegal in itself?

You can opt for the former, but in that case I want you to sing."

And whom, exactly, could Flynn implicate in conspiracy with Russia if he testified to everything he knows?

I've no idea who or how many.

But Jared Kushner seems like one strong possibility.

Again, yes, I'm guessing.

But whether you like Mueller or loathe him (and I promise you the Feds are not my favourite people) it would seem he either has to have more than he's telling, or he's losing his marbles."

[narcisoyea]

I am assuming that Mueller is competent but malicious, it is passing ridiculous to assume otherwise, my pet theory involves that tiny emirate disfavored by trumps policies

[Account Deleted]

I've always thought Tel Aviv was in Israel.

[henry]

Lyle, CFPB collected data much like NSA did. Most people have no idea that all their financial transactions (ATM withdrawals, credit card usage, bank transfers, checks written, mortgage and loan payments / applications, investments, etc) are stored at CFPB. Or that they use these to make up crimes by banks ( which names are African American? I don see enough, fine the bank). The level of bs they had going would stagger anyone.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

narcisoyes,

Hmmm. Good theory. They seem to have been absent in the news for quite some time, haven't they?

I bet Admiral Rogers could help out with that.

Wouldn't it be great if the whole lot got arrested for espionage and sedition? There isn't enough popcorn in the country to satisfy me on that one!

[Account Deleted]

Lt General Flynn is a dangerous hombre by every measure.

[joan]

Dangerous to who or whom (can't decide which to use.) :)

Do you really think he was going to help get that guy killed by spiriting him away to Turkey?

[art in newport]

"Tel Aviv to Jerusalem"?

[joan]

Got to stop reading to watch Lou. Want to see what he says about the FBI guy, 'Stroke' -- don't want to check to see how he spells his name.

[Jim Eagle]

art,

An easy but cautios trip. Done it many times.

You pass abandoned tanks and artillery. It may look dangerous but they leave that there for a reason and we all know why. One of my favorites drives.

[lyle]

Just like the commie totalitarians like it, henry.

[-peter]

OL @ 5:22: heh

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/12/victims-testimony-reveals-establishment-connected-east-coast-trafficking-network/

This is a long piece authored by Elizabeth Lea Vos (@ElizabethleaVos) who ChiTown Lurker suggested I follow. She seems to be mainly concerned with child sexual abuse and human trafficking.

[narcisoyea]

Why even a program diesnt help:

https://www.thecipherbrief.com/article/exclusive/middle-east/network-take-death-gulf-strongman

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

TheLastRefuge‏ @TheLastRefuge2
8m8 minutes ago

Now I'm wondering if Deputy Head of Counterintelligence, FBI Agent Peter Strzok was the person who interviewed Seth Rich.

[Account Deleted]

Speaking of Mueller and emirates, it's not going to suprise me one bit how many of our best brightest have been bought by the same moneybags who turn out to be key players in the anti-Trump vanguard.

Hamrod was on the take. Arab money is stashed in her basement as we speak. But she lost. So how hard are those ragheads throwing cash around now to sack POTUS,fell our electoral process, and restore access to the hallowed halls?

I wonder if Jefferson had snakes in his Cabinet and in Congress before he took out the pashas in Tripoli? Were there "Muellers" at the ready back then doing the bidding of furriners against the fledgling nation?

As fragile as the balance of power and the rule of law are, is the US ever more than one step beyond "fledgling nation" status?

How viperous the EU and UN seem compared to the crowned heads Europe and MENA of the early 19th century.

[Momto2]

A Facebook account that appears to be operated by Melissa Hodgman, a top lawyer at the Securities and Exchange Commission who married Strzok in 1994, shows membership in several pro-Clinton and pro-Obama Facebook groups.

“Democrats for a Blue America” and “Thank You Obama” are two of the groups Hodgman supports. She is also a follower of a page called “We Voted for Hillary.”

Surprise - it's every stinking one of them - wives, mistresses, parents...heck, I'm willing to be if his grandparents are alive and on SM - they are all Dem hacks as well!

[Account Deleted]

joan---> it may be more about what Mueller can feel free to insinuate about Flynn because Flynn failed to register as a foreign agent.

How would Flynn prove he wasn't involved in a mess like that one? Would Erdogan cop to any knowledge of such a play. I'd bet not.

[Momto2]

John Cardillo‏Verified account
@johncardillo

Peter Strzok:

- Part of the Comey/McCabe cabal

- Handled Steel and #fakenews dossier inside FBI alongside McCabe

- Hand picked by Comey to run Hillary e mail investigation

- Hand picked by Mueller for senior investigative staff

Coincidences like this simply don't exist. (my bold)

[GUS]

All of the people involved in the RODHAM......."MATTER", voted for her.

[Momto2]

Really hard to find photos of these people. Here is another one of Strzok's mistress - Lisa Page.

[Jim Eagle]

That's Andrew McCabe below her.

[Buckeye]

Lisa Page looks like she is allergic to shampoo.

[Beasts of England]

Hahaha, Buckeye!! That's a winner!

[GUS]

Right Buckeye, their shit doesn't stink, but their HAIR does.
The Black dude in the photo was sitting behind Comey when he testified, I've seen him before.

[Account Deleted]

So for whom do all of these black hats work? Yes, they are on various agency payrolls. But who is calling the shots in this coup bidness?

[Jim Eagle]

Bolton is right. We are in the middle of a treasonous or seditionous coup by the left led by Obama's Logan Act interferinging in our rightfull elected leaders foreign policy conduct.

[Jim Eagle]

KK,

Follow the money. Most likely Soros and Steyer. But Obama and his puppet masters like Valerie and Brennan/Clapper. The question is who does Brennan represent. Solve that and you know who.

[henry]

Which event is that picture from? They look like they lost an election, or possibly didn't get a cookie with lunch.

[Momto2]

Here is the uncropped photo - maybe someone else interesting in this bunch... Is that guy on the far left Strzok? It looks a little like him.

[Momto2]

Original photo came from here:

https://www.rollcall.com/politics/mccabe-and-rosenstein-a-photo-chronology

[henry]

That does look like Strzok. Can we ID the others? This appears to be coup central.

[Momto2]

Yes - upon a closer look that is definitely Strzok on the left - leaving the hearing with McCabe.

McCabe, center, leaves the Hart Senate Office Building after testifying. (Bill Clark/CQ Roll Call)

[Clarice Feldman]

Yes.it is , Mom

[pagar, a bacon, ham and sausage supporter]

Not Journalists IMO, Leftist propaganda Spreaders!

https://www.weaselzippers.us/366288-cnn-hack-jim-acosta-if-journalism-is-attacked-we-should-resist/

[GUS]

After hearing the SCOTUS allowed The Presidents Executive order on travel from 7 nations.... same nations Col Jug Ears mentioned...
I see 2 Justices dissented.
ning earth could I predict without looking, the EXACT 2 who dissented??

Because they are both disgusting dishonest, bat shit crazy witches.

[Momto2]

This was (according to the Roll Call site) May 11, 2017

When did Strzok start with Mueller? Not in this photo was Rosenstein was also with them.

[Captain Hate]

I think that spells the end of Romney's ambitions as a Utah senator.

Good riddance and take Egg McMorman with you.

Coulter acting dense in a way that draws attention to her? The deuce you say!

[GUS]

Has Silly Yates commented on STRZOK's blackmail ability yet??

Seems he was dipping his pen......you know the rest.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Sundance is busy doing a thread about the events of the last 48 hours. I will post it when he is finished.

[Catsmeat]

A day of mists and thunder (and, actually, in Nebraska a day of 50 mph winds which threaten the porch Xmas tree, subsidiary as it is and relegated to the subsidiary theoretically unbreakable ornaments). Still it skittered three feet to the east under force of winds--but not over!

In lit today I was teaching about Keats' objective correlative (used by Woolf in To the Lighthouse, a bunch, actually) in which something in nature or the world around us exactly suits our own minds at a given moment. So the wind seems about right.

[Janeprobably about 10 minutes after getting there]

If you aren't watching Lou Dobson, you should be. He is calling for the prosecution of Mueller among other things.

One thing is very clear: Trump needs better lawyers.

[narcisoyea]

Lets reopen that medical examiner investigation:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2017/12/why-scarboroughs-misleading-hatch-tweet-matters/

[Account Deleted]

"One thing is very clear: Trump needs better lawyers."

So do i.

[Captain Hate]

Bad day for pineapples:

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=372820

[Janeprobably about 10 minutes after getting there]

Dobson? Thanks spellcheck.

[Captain Hate]

In lit today I was teaching about Keats' objective correlative (used by Woolf in To the Lighthouse, a bunch, actually) in which something in nature or the world around us exactly suits our own minds at a given moment. So the wind seems about right.

I tried really really hard to like To the Lighthouse but just couldn't get it done. I feel like I'm missing out on something good, though; similar to Joe Manieri's music.

[Jack is Back!]

catsmeat,

For you but you have probably viewed it already.

By Archibald McLiesch and narrated by James Mason.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Keats

[Appalled]

Why call him Agent Strzok, when Agent Zelig seems to work as well.

[Captain Hate]

Hatch's comments were cold and calloused

Guitarzan really can turn a phrase, no?

[Barbara]

Just catching up...

I have several of my grandmother's cookie cutters - they are tin with the red wooden knob handles.

Momto2 @ 4:22 pm,

Those are wonderful! I have very few (even some with the green wooden knobs), and I treasure them.

[Account Deleted]

As the cascade of foppery continues let's allow our thoughts to find higher ground: (no really--- look at what this anti-Antifa guy says)---->

"Think of the men who have changed history! What do they have in common? What separates them from the faceless, shapeless masses of humanity that neither achieve nor rise above their station to alter the course of events and empires?

Did Hernán Cortés wake up one morning in 1519 and promise himself he’d have sixpack abs in time for summer?

Or did he burn his ships on the beach, invade a new continent, and establish immense and immortal glory and wealth for the Spanish Crown before advancing with fire and sword towards Tenochtitlan?

Did Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, sit at his desk in 1815 and make a resolution to improve his success with women?

Or did he lead a magnificent, brilliant defense at Waterloo, permanently break the back of Napoleon Bonaparte and save the future of Europe from one of the most famous conquerors in the world?

Those men had sacred purpose!

They threw their lives down on the table with unconquerable ferocity!"

[Janeprobably about 10 minutes after getting there]

The FBI has to go down!

[Clarice Feldman]

Jane, I found a spare set of pistolas for you.

[Captain Hate]

This is like what it was like to live in the Robber Baron era. These people literally want to erase the progress of the 20th century.

Same with Neera Tanden although, in her defense, she's not writing in Hindi.

[GUS]

Breaking up families and finding young female interns dead in a bloody heap in your office is cold and callous.

[Account Deleted]

"The FBI has to go down."

Page and Strzok set the bar pretty high, no?

[Captain Hate]

Gus, good luck with a Steffi Graf dream tonight.

[Account Deleted]

No pressure, GUS!

[narcisoyea]

Lets assume, that he didmt kill miss klausitis, he want the most diligent boss was he?

[narcisoyea]

Spooks across the pond cover their six

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5066545/spies-had-info-on-manchester-bomber-before-attack/

[sbw]

used by Woolf in To the Lighthouse

Catsmeat, I was about to say the same thing CH did. Not fond of Lighthouse.

Woolf, however, if she wrote nothing else, should be revered for her 1923 essay in which she claimed, “On or about December 1910 human nature changed.”

Woolf described ‘Modernism’ as an artistic intent to push deeper into the literary representations of consciousness. If character is the question of life, should it also be the question of literature? Should characterization of characters mirror character in life?”

Great fun!

[Rocco]

Although this timeline doesn't mention Strzok, I believe he was working directly for McCabe at some point. You couldn't make this stuff up if you wanted to...McCabe recused himself from the McAuliffe investigation but remained in charge of the Clinton Foundation investigation which by the way, McAuliffe was a board member.

http://www.thompsontimeline.com/13691/2016/07/15/

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

As this corruption surfaces more and more, the natives are getting restless.
They better clean this mess up via legal means soon.

[Captain Hate]

Thanks for that comment, sbw. I could tell she was a writer of substance but just couldn't untie the knot. Oh well, nobody understands Finnegan's Wake...

[Rocco]

And quite a coincidence that one month before the state department released the first batch of emails, the ones/one that sparked the IG's investigation, McCabe's wife was asked to run for a state senate seat in VA. The FBI also began their investigation in May, 2015. The heat was on so they stacked the deck!

[Clarice Feldman]

I'm sure getting my dander up, Iggy.

[narcisoyea]

Yikes, captain it.makes gravity's rainbow seem coherent:
www.finwake.com/1024chapter1/fw01.htm

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Clarice,

I wish I had a set of pistolas.

It seems to me that the FBI became an arm of the Clinton-Obama cabal sometime soon after Obama was elected.

This indicates to me that the corruption was there before that time, or there would have been resistance to the corruption.

It is possible that they undermined W as well, only he was too naive to call them on it, or maybe he was complicit.

I hope this makes sense. What I am trying to say is that they have been corrupted and politicized since before 2008.

[Clarice Feldman]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/12/former-un-ambassador-dc-deep-state-attacks-trump-first-attempted-coup-detat-us-history-video/

Oh, and the RNC is NOW supporting Judge Moore

[Janeprobably about 10 minutes after getting there]

Wow what a shift in the TV shows tonite. They are ready for war against the FBI. Rare to see them leading.

[GUS]

Sharapova is guaranteed if you double the dosage.

[Clarice Feldman]

Hey, maybe they'll recall agent Eckenrod from retirement --he did such a good job in helping to frame Libby.

[henry]

Miss M, we may need to place the corruption closer to the Whitewater investigation / Vince Foster coverup. If not all the way back to Slick's inauguration. Who gave FBI files of Republicans to Livingston?

[Captain Hate]

It is possible that they undermined W as well, only he was too naive to call them on it, or maybe he was complicit.

That will be something for the historians to sort out, assuming any real ones emerge from this. One thing is for sure after the last nine years: the Bushes weren't what we were led to believe.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

henry,

Good point. I don't know, but I would love for someone to find the answer!

[simply stupid]

My question is the total arrogance of Mueller Comey and Mccabe in hiring Strzock and Page even while the IG had an investigation going on. Thought that IG being an Obama appointee would look the other way but the same forces that caused Comey to make the July 5 and October 28 pressers got to the IG and held his feet to the fire. Mueller stupid and arrogant to hire them and now the whole thing will blow up on the DEMS and the ddep state.

[Captain Hate]

I figured the ewok would be all over these two mentally ill slobs:

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=372816

[art in newport]

.. the Bushes weren't what we were led to believe ..

A strong 'Amen' to that

[narcisoyea]

The late Jerry pournelle, hosted a piece that delved deep into Mueller's deep state affiliations, part of it was conjecture, but he has been unaccountable for 25 years or more.

[Clarice Feldman]

simply, he hired them AFTER the IG investigation--are you sure of that?

[GUS]

Mueller hired all LIBTARD/DEEP STATE/FULL COMMIE HACKS.

Maybe the motherfucker did this HONESTLY??

Who the fuck is stupid enough to believe that.

[Beasts of England]

'Sharapova is guaranteed if you double the dosage.'

How much do I have to take for Kournikova?

[GUS]

All of it Beasts, but you're just the man for the job.

[narcisoyea]

A slightly less tendentious thread:

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-supreme-court-is-allowing-trump.html

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Here is Sundance's discussion of the Mueller stuff. There are 35 tweets in the thread.

https://twitter.com/TheLastRefuge2/status/937842655106686978

[Catsmeat]

CH, totally understand about the not wanting to re-visiting To the Lighthouse--I myself wouldn't read it for pleasure or even light money. Sbw, yes, and that December, 1910 arbitrary date is important. Her escapade with other Bloomsbury pranksters in the Dreadnought hoax (they were pacifists and wanted to make the Royal Navy look bad) was a marker--old age gone, new age in. And JiB, I should have seen that lovely Keats thing but will soon when I've time. My only plea: I'm not a Romanticist.

[Clarice Feldman]

Key bits on twitter account MM cited:1 reply 44 retweets 115 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 44 Like 115 Direct message

TheLastRefuge‏
@TheLastRefuge2
2h2 hours ago
More
Replying to @TheLastRefuge2
8. A part of that clear strategy now appears to be a willingness to throw Deputy Head of Counterintelligence, FBI Agent Peter Strzok, under the bus in an effort to avoid their own culpability in politicized FBI investigative practices.
11 replies 54 retweets 126 likes
Reply 11 Retweet 54 Like 126 Direct message

TheLastRefuge‏
@TheLastRefuge2
2h2 hours ago
More
Replying to @TheLastRefuge2
7. The larger stories today seem to build out on a specific narrative that appears, well constructed, to further defend those interests. The Deep State, and the 'Black Hat' operatives within it, is/are circling the wagons per se'.
3 replies 35 retweets 115 likes
Reply 3 Retweet 35 Like 115

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Chad Pergram‏Verified account @ChadPergram
2m2 minutes ago

Colleague Peter Doocy rpts that after the RNC quit dumping money/resources to help Roy Moore, they have turned 180 degrees and are again sending resources to AL to help Moore.
=========================

Hmmm. Why would this be? I can only conclude that President Trump pointed out the danger of letting Jones win.

[Ralph L]

I had to skip to the end before I forget:
If ADM Rogers told Trump about JEF's wiretapping of his people, wouldn't Flynn know for certain his calls to Russia were recorded before Jan 24?

Flynn really should have told the sneaky FBI guys to come back later.

[sbw]

I'm not a Romanticist

Thank goodness.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rev-jesse-jackson-john-singleton-accused-sexual-harassment-article-1.3617222

[Ralph L]

Rogers told before the inauguration.

Do previous Prez's lower appointees (Yates) take over DoJ on Jan 20, or has the new AG normally been voted in by then?

[narcisoyea]

My arakeen palace metaphors bears out:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/937741488645070849

[Ralph L]

"If Congress were ever to charge him..., we'd have a constitutional crisis," Dershowitz said.

Assuming we have more than one people with balls on our side.

[Beasts of England]

Thanks, GUS - I'm so excited I may have a hard time falling asleep. :)

[Beasts of England]

The Rosie tweets are meltdownilicious...

[Catsmeat]

Yeah, not a Romanticist even with sbw's invidious suggestions! I cede to more pressing news of state! Go Trump.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/04/clinton-aides-went-unpunished-after-making-false-statements-to-anti-trump-fbi-supervisor/

Here's Strzok interviewing more people with shady actioins.

[sbw]

Catsmeat, It would be fun to see a short essay differentiating literary romanticism w/ political/historical Romantics -- those who cherry pick facts to fit their own narratives.