Failure To Orient Horse And Cart

Writing in Politico Dr. Mark L. Rosenberg, who "is president emeritus of the Task Force for Global Health in Decatur, and was the founding director of CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control" tells us where the gun debate has gone awry:

What’s Missing From the Gun Debate

It’s simple: Science.

He goes on to deplore the lack of funding for basic research into effective means of reducing gun violence but of course, the lack of funding is a symptom rather than a cause. What is missing from the debate is not science, it is trust. 

Conservatives believe, on some evidence, that the social sciences have become yet another bastion for academic progressives. Consequently right-wingers believe that agenda-driven progressives will engage in agenda-driven statistical jiggery-pokery, produce papers peer-reviewed by other progressives, and come away "proving" the efficacy of the progressive agenda item du jour.

Is that distrust misplaced? Maybe! NY Times columnist and reliable lefty Nick Kristof seems to have figured out that the "assault weapons ban" is a joke. And Leah Libresco surprised herself and (I suspect) her WaPo and/or 538 editors with a piece titled 

I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

So maybe there are progressives willing to break with their team on some gun-related issues. On the other hand, Mike Bloomberg's "Everytown" isn't even aiming for credibility [CNBC list] with their "Schools Shootings" count and don't get me started on the NY Times editors (OK, one).

Closer to home, author Dr. Rosenberg engages in a bit of, hmm, card-palming himself. Stay with me through some snippets, and I bet you'll guess where I am going:

Where does that leave us? The exact causes of America’s rise in mass shootings—and the best ways to prevent such violence—remain uncertain all these years after Columbine. Should we focus our efforts on mental health? Would a ban on semi-automatic rifles necessarily solve the problem? What if the surest bet is for schools to install metal detectors in their halls? 

...

Common sense doesn’t tell us whether a ban on semi-automatic rifles will reduce mass shootings—that question is too complicated for us to simply work out in our heads. But it’s possible a well-designed study could, and would in turn build public trust in any resulting legislation.

...

And we don’t know whether banning the sale of semi-automatic rifles will prevent mass shootings or lead to more gun deaths because there will be fewer good guys with a gun to stop the bad guys with guns. To answer the question, we also have to measure the degree to which each intervention infringes on the rights of law-abiding gun owners. Only rigorous, objective and well-designed scientific research can find the answer.

...

When we ask lawmakers to make decisions without data—measures like campus carry, universal background checks, identifying individuals at high risk for violence or bans on semi-automatic rifles—we are pushing them to approve the equivalent of thalidomide for gun violence.

Four mentions of semi-automatic rifles. Mentions of "assault weapons"?  Zero. And why is that?

I don't know but... Dr. Rosenberg  is a smart guy who has surely figured out that an AR-15 or other semi-automatic platform tricked out with a black matte finish, bayonet mount, grenade launcher mount and flash suppressor to look like a prop in a Schwarzenegger film is no more deadly than a semi-automatic with a wooden stock that would be OK-ish (except for the magazine) in a John Wayne film.

 

But the national debate, as Dr. Rosenberg well knows, is not about banning semi-automatic rifles. As long as they don't look scary, progressives seem to be OK with semi-automatics rifles, for now anyway. So why is the doctor eliding the difference? Why won't he put his cards on the table and tell us that an assault weapons ban is a joke and would be about as effective as addressing our nation's alcohol problem by banning Scotch and vodka but not bourbon or gin?

 

I don't know and I would be curious to hear his explanation. But one guess many will make is that he is simply not comfortable delivering hard truths to progressives. Which kind of disqualifies him from leading the charge of "science".

 

DO LET ME ADD: Here is another credibility-crushing example fro the good doctor (my emphasis):

 

We need to find interventions that will both stop the violence and protect the rights of law-abiding gun owners. For instance, right now we don’t know whether arming all teachers in a school will save lives or take more lives.

 

Well, we do know that no serious proposal to arm "all" teachers has been made. Why send a strawman into the crossfire?

 

 

Comments

[hoyden]

When liberals ban guns then only liberals will have guns. That would be criminals and their big government.z

[hrtshpdbox]

I'm fairly certain this thread is supposed to be titled Failure To Asian Horse And Cart.

[henry]

Yeah, that science that was gonna end fossil fuels and make us all live in Goolag "Smart City" re-education camps gave us confidence in "science" done by politically motivated asshats.

[Extraneus]

And we don’t know whether banning the sale of semi-automatic rifles will prevent mass shootings or lead to more gun deaths because there will be fewer good guys with a gun to stop the bad guys with guns. To answer the question, we also have to measure the degree to which each intervention infringes on the rights of law-abiding gun owners. Only rigorous, objective and well-designed scientific research can find the answer.

Disingenuous. The good guys usually carry pistols, which are themselves semi-automatic.

[Comanche Voter]

I dunno. Sixty years ago when I was a teenager, my brother and I had a Marlin Model 39 lever action .22 caliber rifle. We shot tin cans with it out in the countryside. The tube magazine held 15 rounds of .22 long rifle ammunition. Wood stock, blue octagonal barrel (the gun itself had belonged to my father and was probably 30 years old when we had it). I could get 15 aimed rounds off in just a little bit more time than I could fire 15 rounds from an AR 15 "assault rifle". (And I later fired the M-16 while in the military.) Of course it did take a bit of time to reload that magazine.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

I am woefully unqualified to discuss guns since I don't own one and wouldn't know an AR-15 from an M-16 (the only other rifle model number I know).

However, given the last 8 years, I am unwilling to have guns solely in the hands of criminals an/or agents of the government (which, during the Obama years wwere one and the same).

Larry Schweikhart says that he is no longer of the opinion that the corruption at the FBI is only within the management and a few agents. He now thinks it's most of the organization with a few frightened agents willing to anonymously leak but powerless to do anything.

[Jack is Back!]

Even the Parkland massacre we are still #26 in countries with highest per capita murder rates. It will take a tactical nuke to make us number one.

[hrtshpdbox]

...wouldn't know an AR-15 from an M-16

Few would, MM, as they're the same gun, mostly. I'm thinking the AR doesn't have the "rock n' roll" setting, though.

[Extraneus]

REPEAL THE 2ND AMENDMENT? YES, PLEASE TRY

Liberals increasingly are coming out of the closet, admitting that what they have wanted all along is to ban, or limit to an extreme degree, private ownership of firearms. This would require, as a starting point, repeal of the Second Amendment, which more and more liberals now admit they favor. Earlier today, InstaPundit linked to a marvelous 2015 column by Charles Cooke. Not much has changed since then.

Cooke notes that talk is cheap, and encourages liberals to take on the onerous task of accomplishing what they say they want.

Excerpts at the link.

[F Hudson]

State courts generally have inherent jurisdiction to issue injunctive relief to limit violence. The relief may limit a constitutional right such as the right to picket (free speech) as in labor dispute injunctions and there is no reason it could not limit a persons 2nd amendment rights -to own or have access to guns-when good cause is shown. Surely there was good cause in the Cruz case if the fact had been presented.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

I am going out to lunch with my friend who is a federal marshal and her husband, who is a police detective. I am interested in hearing what they have to say about this stuff, especially the 302's.

Will report back this afternoon!

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Meanwhile, at least the Bloomington police are taking this stuff seriously, UNLIKE the FBI:

http://www.wibc.com/news/local-news/two-elementary-students-among-five-arrested-after-threat-investigation

[DebinGA]

Given the helpful example of Parkland, FL, imo ceding your safety to local police should be viewed as a death wish.

[Captain Hate]

Yes, I'm numb to the concept that the FBI is just a few bad apples at the top. Assuming there are some employees there with integrity it should be abundantly obvious to them by now that something has gone horribly wrong with the organization. Being heroic isn't for everybody which is why heroes stand out; but we've been told all our lives that these guys are the elite of law enforcement so they should be better equipped than most to effectively deal with it unless everything we've been led to believe is a lie.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Captain Hate,

After reading those text messages from Strzok to page, I am pretty positive that they are not only not elite, but pretty mediocre.

[clarice]

Hudson--though the last time he was interviewed--admittedly some time earlier--the social workers determined he was not a threat to himself or others.

[Old Lurker]

I agree about the FBI and throw the DoJ into the same boat. Top to bottom with one or two exceptions to prove the point.

Intel might be the same though their cancer MIGHT be mostly in the top ranks.

IRS is evil at the senior levels and incompetent below that.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Should we apply "science" to determine what other rights might be abridged?
Surely social scientists can come up with all sorts of statistics that could tell us how many lives would be saved through unreasonable searches and seizures, suspending habeus corpus and abridging free speech.
What could possibly go wrong? Why we might even come up with a reason to gag and maybe even imprison the head of the CDC for shooting his mouth off.

[Beasts of England]

When it comes to gun control, the GOPe will find a way to engage in crony capitulism.

[clarice]

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/19/michael-flynns-plea-reversal-uncover-federal-corr

sullivan updated his standing order to include pre-plea exculpatory evidence disclosure which apparently was not done re Flynn.

[F Hudson]

Clarice-love your Am. Thinker articles by the way-
Maybe answer is to provide state court procedures that would expand the universe beyond social workers as to who can make an effort to stop such an event

[clarice]

Thnx F Hudson but I think most shrinks would agree that there is no sure fire way to determine whether a person poses a threat in most cases.Why not start by improving the FBI and local police hotline responses and hardening schools in much the same way we prevented kids from being burned in fires.

[hoyden]

If shrinks and cops can't do the job of keeping people safe from crazies then we need more citizens with guns.

[Extraneus]

CNN Host Frets Fox News Will Be Critical of Guest Comparing Russia Interference to Pearl Harbor

[DebinGA]

Just reading about a high school where each teacher wears a lanyard with a button to alert LE to an emergency. All doors throughout the school are hardened and automatically lock, and all windows, including doors, are shatterproof.

[henry]

Yikes! Primary is tomorrow.

And we’re at it again. Last week, former U.S. attorney general Eric Holder announced that he and President Obama are coming to Wisconsin in April to campaign. In a state-supreme-court election.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/the-resistance-comes-to-a-wisconsin-supreme-court-election/

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

What I discovered at lunch:

1. State law is that all interviews must be recorded.

2. Federal marshals do not record, either.

3. A few years ago HUD officials were "cleaning up" the interviews and ere told they couldn't do that, so now the interviews go into PDF files which cannot be altered. Any changes must be made before they are submitted and approved.

4. The federal marshal system is not the same as the FBI's.

Basically, if you are interviewed by anyone in the federal law enforcement system, and I would guess this goes from the FBI all the way through National Parks rangers, they do NOT record your interview, but submit an agent's account of the interview. This sounds to me like a really bad situation and one that should be changed, pronto.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

I should clarify that my #1 applies to all Indiana state and local police. Indiana has no jurisdiction over what the feds do, of course.

[DebinGA]

What about LE body cams? Wasn't the point to document what occurred rather than rely on faulty memories or lies?

[Account Deleted]

(From the previous thread):

Breaking read-only radio silence to reply to you,maryrose, who said:

KK:
I have visited your state 3 times in my life.
In 1972, 1993 and in 2011.

It's a rather large state. Where did you "visit"?

I saw a complete change over the span of 45 years.

"Complete"? Where were you? There have been significant changes everywhere throughout the state. But "complete" is a meaningless qualifier.

From 1960 until 2017, the population *TRIPLED*.

And there were economic engines roaring which made California the world's 7th largest economy by the time Reagan took office for his second term.

So, yes, unlike certain regions which had their booms much later than California (Seattle, Austin, Raleigh-Durham, Denver etc) *MUCH* has changed.

Are you a native of California?

Put it this way, my Maw was born in a field hospital while her clan of 41 worked truck farms during the 1930s in the Coachella Valley.

As for me, I came to Califas in 1955, still shittin yella, when Paw was honorably discharged from the US Navy. My birth site was the US Naval Hospital in Portsmouth VA.

Paw was born in Powell, Wyoming in 1932 on the north end of a railway line. When his Paw and oldest brother were killed (they were ice cutters for the refrigeration cars--- lowered into ice caverns to cut the ice---- one day they never came back up.) G-Maw Maria packed up the fam and moved to Sacramento California.

He was four. Paw's side of the family, his Maw and Paw, immigrated legally from Chihuahua after the 1st Mexican Revolution with seven children-- when the "revolutionary government" began terminating the ranchers who'd supported Villa's Army of the North, with whom G-Paw was deeply involved. That was just before the start of WWI.

I lived in Califas from 1955 through 1973 when I left for college studies in Indiana. I returned for the birth of my first child in 1977, but left for southern Illinois to farm and to be nearer to the child's maternal side of the fam in Vincennes, IN. That was in summer 1979.

I spent a total of 24 years living outside of California.

Out of a high school graduating class of 414, only 4 of us left.

The rest stayed put and became quite wealthy in the real estate boom, the tech boom, and just about every other boom that erupted here.

85% of our class retired at age 50. We sponsored the lion's share of financing for over $100 milllion in renovations and a new football *stadium* since 1985.

I returned in 1998 to raise my third and last child after my own boomlet during the insanity of the Dot.com era.

I have lived here since. My ashes will be spread here on Grizzly Peak.

I am a Californian.

I maintained a California mailing address from 1977 to present date. And voted in California elections.

Because you asked if I was born in Califas, I suspect the question, as irrelevant as it seems to the points of my initial retort to you, goes to "credibility of the witness."

I am troubled by the fact that a Tepunlican has no chance there because of the top two vote getter rule.

That's a symptom and a capstone on the real problem, keeping it impenetrable from a legislative standpoint.

The dis-ease is the gerrymandering farce that has been in play since the Reagan gubernatorial era, and matured to become a Democrat science during the Pete Wilson era.

Sacramento and your recycled governor go to their own beat.

No they do not.

Moonbeam is in the pocket of Big Water, Big EPA, Big China.

He has decimated our agricultural base in the Great Central Valley and it is about to get worse. Laws of physics apply to agricultural trends--- they tend to stay in motion having ripple effects on food supplies long after the decrease in production passes.

Moonbeam has no vision: but the big 3 certainly do.

Then there is the river of dirty money from the meth trade, the cartel trade in marijuana cultivation, and the border jumping import dope/export cash trade---- all of which line pockets of Democrat politicians, county by county (we have 58), district by district.

The corruption is deeply embedded in the state corrections system with which I am *intensely* familiar due to my weekend work with Native inmates' religious rights and ceremonies *inside*.

The Mexican mafia, Black militant, and White supremacist gangs have run the barrio, ghetto, and poor white drugs and gun trades from their prison sites since the late 50s. With wireless comms coming into their own, the organization, precision and power of influence has only escalated.

Since that early era in prison cash business and graft, they began buying Sacramento early on through the assemblymen in major cities such as Oakland, SFO, and Los Angeles.

Now with the significant population of Mexican nationals calling more and more of the shots, things are a far cry from what was going down in the 20th century. It's big business.

I offer such detail because you referred to the state as LA-LA land.

That is a stereotype which reflects the Marin County shee-shee crowd, or the Malibu, La Jolla, Sandy Eggo beach-centered populations etc etc etc.

For the majority of Californians, whether we live urban or rural, the drug trade has a symptomatic presence of crime, intimidation, murder, and collateral damage. That isn't LA-LA land.

So for you to express, admittedly frustrated sentiments about how maybe Califas should just secede from the Union---- it is a careless and unfounded assertion to base that on Sacramento politicians or a LA LA land mentality.

It would be a bloodbath.

There are many naive millenial splinter groups that are pushing for it because they are convinced the system is "hopelessly" broken.

When in fact their historical understanding of what secessionist politics did to the US for over 100 years is anemic at best or absent altogether.

The reckoning coming to the governor and his assembly in Sacramento over their unfunded liabilities and nose-thumbing of federal law will foster a sea changing economic deprivation never seen before in the Nation.

We are a bell weather state and have been for a long time.

It is a lovely state in appearance but the people in power are not helping the citizens by screwing around with your water rights and letting so many of your forests go up in smoke.

No argument there. Bill Clinton bears much of the blame for the forest mismanagement based on "clear cutting" laws.

Areas of the state which were timber harvested back in the 80s look as if it happened last week,because "animal habitat" scientists have theories that discount how forests reseed themselves when undergrowth isn't allowed to disrupt that cycle. The "hands off our forests crowd" has mucked this up badly.

But again---- this is criminal behavior disguised as legislative policy. It is as much an abuse of federal power as it is old boy assembly residue from the Willie Brown patronage on steroids era.

LA-LA land? Not if one has these tough problems to solve in mind. Secession won't fix anything.

But we are still here enduring and biding time.

You may not know this, but we have a rich Republican (not RINO--- Republican tradition) which groomed Ronald Reagan for his presidential bids and ultimate success.

It was the College Young Republicans who started that drive in 1960, who actually had to convince the ascendant Reagan that he was worthy of the office.

It was the young upstarts from that same CYR, namely Dr. Jack Wheeler, who crafted the strategy that ultimately bankrupted the Soviet Union via an arms race.

At that time, IIRC, the American people were so fear-filled over the Russkies as this big and permanent monolithic behemoth of a "Bear" whom no one could take down.

The mentality was "We just have live with them." Nope. We didn't. And Reagan and Wheeler proved there was another way. I think the popular perception of Califas and its problems bear (pun intended) a similarity to the Soviet "problem."

Wheeler is still alive and well. And the think tanks, mastermind groups, and youth organizing continue; not necessarily under his leadership but definitely in the spirit of what he helped to create.

We do not live in LA LA land. Our powder is dry.

And slowly almost all involved are either 100% believing, or at least moving toward, that Donald Trump represents an emerging (not yet mature) National Sentiment of underestimated proportions.

The ENS is not visible as much as its effects are (USG ran at a surplus in January 2018). It certainly isn't reported with the likes of Romney taking up media air and the Lying Swine Media reporting trash to unseat POTUS.

So be it. We will continue, even here in California.

There will be a quality Republican candidate to run for the DiFi seat next time around.

Not a "pure conservative principle-focused" individual as much as an OODA man--- former Top Gun Marines fighter pilot turned entrepreneur (small business, not a Muskian-Zuck type.) who believes big government at every level--- local, state and national--- the NEXUS is going to be disrupted because of out of control debt.

I don't talk much about what people are doing to stop things like the bullet train fiasco and other nonsense. It only contributes to a culture of hopelessness and cynicism, and it gives fodder to our enemies in the emerging millenial media.

The same thing applied during the runup to the "surprise" Trump victory in 2016. We didn't speak publicly or in polite company with lib fascists to debate them. We had a common strategy: asking them "So how do you think you are going to feel when she loses?"

Those underinformed and miseducated Californians are under the impression that they can make the Marxist utopia happen here in Califas if "we just didn't have to deal with a broken system in DC."

I have made it my business as a venture investor to persuade them to shift their foci. My group has walked away from many a table because only about 1% has figured out that they were born in the 90s and "don't know shit."

Thanks for reading.

Kev

PS: I will read your rejoinder/rebuttal. But won't be here to reply. :>) JSYK.

[Jim Eagle]

Kev,

Fascinating All-American story. There are 330 million out there. We need to hear them all.

You're were getting close to Andruil's word record with the last one:)

Shouldn't they be naming winter storms after wintry characters like Donner, Blitzen, Rudolph and Frosty instead of Broadway shows like Oliver?

[Old Lurker]

Deb: "Just reading about a high school where each teacher wears a lanyard with a button to alert LE to an emergency. All doors throughout the school are hardened and automatically lock, and all windows, including doors, are shatterproof."

Hmmm. How would any single thing on that list have helped in any recent school shooting?

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Checking to see if a link showed up. I am so tired of various web sites being put on Typepad's "disapproved" list.

[Tom Maguire]

Re:

Should we apply "science" to determine what other rights might be abridged?

Surely social scientists can come up with all sorts of statistics that could tell us how many lives would be saved through unreasonable searches and seizures, suspending habeus corpus and abridging free speech.

Offhand, I would say that "unreasonable search and seizure" is routinely abridged under court order and following a showing of probable cause. Abused spouses get restraining orders abridging freedom of movement all the time. In fact, judges routinely balance different rights.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

From American Greatness: "The Media's Wlk of Shame Won't End"

https://tinyurl.com/ycc5nsbs

[henry]

Douthat reveals scarcity of brain cells:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/18/political-pundits-need-to-understand-guns-before-demanding-new-gun-bans/#.WosRvx4oh4g.twitter

[GUS]

Judges also lie through their teeth "ALL THE TIME".

The FULL COMMIE respects no laws, nor rights.

Forgive me, but I don't believe judges are there to "balance" rights.

[Janet 🚬 - I wish my family had a poncho]

MM's link - https://amgreatness.com/2018/02/18/medias-walk-shame-wont-end/

[Roy Lofquist]

"We have met the enemy and he is us" ~ Walt Kelly as voiced by Pogo.

It wasn’t the video games. It wasn't the gun. It wasn't the FBI. It wasn't fluoride in the water. It was us.

"PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) — The last piece of legislation President John F. Kennedy signed turns 50 this month: the Community Mental Health Act, which helped transform the way people with mental illness are treated and cared for in the United States.

Signed on Oct. 31, 1963, weeks before Kennedy was assassinated, the legislation aimed to build mental health centers accessible to all Americans so that those with mental illnesses could be treated while working and living at home, rather than being kept in neglectful and often abusive state institutions, sometimes for years on end."

https://www.usatoday.com/st...

"Few anticipated how quickly President Kennedy’s aspiration of reducing the institutional population by half would be realized. By 1980, the inpatient population at public psychiatric hospitals had declined by 75%. In 2000, approximately 55,000 remained in these institutions, representing less than 10% of those institutionalized just fifty years prior. The shift was especially pronounced among children and youth: by 2009, the institutionalized population had declined by 98%."

https://www.ymadvocacy.org/...

Pull your heads out of your donkeys, disband the circular firing squads and pay attention. We did it to ourselves.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

Unrolled thread from Larry Schweikart, concerning Flynn, the falsified 302's, and the difficulty of investigating. Worth reading, IMHO:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/965590056785227776.html

[Janet 🚬 - I wish my family had a poncho]

The video is something - http://rightobserver.com/hillary-lashes-out-at-trump-for-abuse-of-power-warns-him-not-to-prosecute-her-video/

What chutzpah to be talking about the "rule of law, not of men". Hello...the IRS targeting. Leftist "activists" allowed to vandalize property & attack Americans without being prosecuted. Citizens of other countries allowed to break our immigration laws.
Why wasn't SHE charged for setting up a secret server & mishandling classified info?

"moving into the political realm is something we've never seen"
I've seen it.
We're watching it be exposed right now with the corrupt DOJ & FBI going after then candidate Trump.
What about her Dem. operatives trying to incite violence at Trump rallies?

[Beasts of England]

Billy Kristol has already endorsed Douthat's stupidity, henry. AR-15s all the way down...

[Jim Eagle]

Ken Keysey also did his part to popularize the Mental Institution as a Comedy House of Errors and Omissions so that everyone could see through its incompetency. I also wonder if Cruz's blood samples show him to be a "crack"baby or an "acid drop" one?

Being adopted is a good first sign.

[jimmyk]

Hmmm. How would any single thing on that list have helped in any recent school shooting?

I think locking classroom doors would have helped in some cases, but could have made things worse in the latest. It would depend on whether it was triggered before many students emptied out into the halls in response to the fire alarm. There would be a risk that students would have been prevented from getting back into the classroom, which I believe was how many escaped.

My daughter's school has a lot of security (though unarmed as far as I know), but they are unsurprisingly mum on the details. It would be strange for a school to reveal too much, though saying security is armed would be ok, I would think.

[DebinGA]

How would any single thing on that list have helped in any recent school shooting?

Cruz fired into 5 classrooms before dropping his gun and hiding among fleeing students.

[Rocco]

He pulled the fire alarm.

[boatbuilder]

"Why won't he put his cards on the table and tell us that an assault weapons ban is a joke and would be about as effective as addressing our nation's alcohol problem by banning Scotch and vodka but not bourbon or gin?"

OK--now you've got my attention.

Talk about prying from my cold dead hands...

[DebinGA]

Sheriff: School Shooting Suspect Fired Into 5 Classrooms Before Dropping Rifle and Blending in With Fleeing Students ... AP, so I wouldn't bet money on it being accurate.

[Old Lurker]

Exactly, Rocco.

[Captain Hate]

According to the Horde, an NRO writer stated that if the libs and RINOs are so confident at how unpopular the Second Amendment is, there's a Constitutional way to jettison it. So have at it, clowns, or STFU.

[Old Lurker]

Or wait till the halls are full changing classes or wait for lunch or on and on.

Deb, that school wasted probably all of a million dollars that any whacko teenage boy could defeat without slowing down.

[boatbuilder]

It is not a panacea, but anyone without blinders on should be able to see that the single effective way to limit school shooting events and deaths is to allow qualified and trained teachers to hold weapons (perhaps locked in safes in their classrooms) or hire armed security--although adding armed security to the budget of every school would be a huge burden on most school systems.

We trust teachers to take care of our precious children for most of their waking hours. Yet we can't trust them to properly handle weapons that all law-abiding Americans have a constitutional right to handle in their own homes? We don't have to force teachers to learn how to do this--those who recognize the need and feel qualified will volunteer.

If a private institution took custody of our children and confined them to an environment subject to armed attack without proper, armed security they would be negligent and would be held to account. Our schools mandate this and their is no recourse--Our children are at the mercy of "law enforcement" who are not in the building and not paying attention anyway.

Does anyone need to ask whether that football coach who died in FL would have saved many more lives along with his own if he had been permitted to carry and fire back rather than being reduced to placing his body as a shield?

I am not a "gun nut"--I have never owned a gun or even fired anything more dangerous than a bb gun. But this is common sense. Until all guns are gone (it is ludicrous to even state the possibility) we as a society have a duty to protect our children. Not by phony, feel-good legislation but by real action and the type of measures that work in the real world.

[Extraneus]

Captain, there was a good piece about that linked at 10:59.

[Captain Hate]

Last week, former U.S. attorney general Eric Holder announced that he and President Obama are coming to Wisconsin in April to campaign

Still no campaign sightings of The Beast in Wisconsin.

[Captain Hate]

Right you are, Ext; my mistake for not paying attention to it.

[Extraneus]

Same as with plane hijackings, bb. Armed pilots aren't as easy to take out with box cutters.

I don't see the need for special training and qualification, either. It can't hurt unless it dissuades potential protectors, but I can carry in Walmart, restaurants, at the mall, the park, and basically anywhere but a school or government building. No special training or qualifications necessary beyond what I needed to do for CCW.

Any teacher who can legally carry should be allowed to carry in school. The fear that teachers might flip out and kill the students is idiotic. If they were going to do that they wouldn't be deterred by the gun-free rule.

[matt - deplore me if you must]

One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest did more damage to our mental health care system than anything else. But the decline in beds dates to the 50's, when Dr. Thomas Szasz, in the pay of the Scientologists argued that there is no such thing as mental illness.

Eventually the American Psychiatric Association supported the closure of state mental hospitals because they were bad. Go figure. They didn't want to make them better.

Government saw, with the backing of the shrinks, a chance to bail out of a very expensive service to the state.

And thus my grandmother, who had bee in residence at Creedmoor, ended up on our doorstep one day in @ 1969 or so.

In Cali, the person who began emptying the state hospitals was Pat Brown. Reagan gets the rap, however.

Psychiatric beds are down 95% from the 1960's. We basically have the same number of beds in this country as we had in the 1850's.

Government funding has been cut time and again and in addition, most of the state beds left here in Cali are now forensic; either convicted or waiting for trial. There is a backlog of 600-800 prisoners with severe MI in our jails and prisons general populations now.

mental health beds are a range of levels of care; group homes, pre-episodic, overnight crisis stabilization, medium term, long term, and then the locked facilities in hospital psychiatric units and long term facilities. Many of the mid-long term facilities have locked and unlocked sections.

We do not have enough of any of these beds. If one facility gets jammed it impacts the entire system of care and people end up on the streets.

Our son was released when he should have been sent to a longer term care facility, but he had been in the psych unit for 10 days and they booted him out to make way for another patient. He died by suicide 3 hours later.

The jails are our default facilities. 50-70% of the inmates have a diagnosable mental illness. For 3,000 prisoners in our county jails we have 120 beds. And it is an endless cycle. They boot someone out to open up a bed. The person goes back into the population and violence erupts and they are back in again. Usually the violence is directed at the mentally ill inmate, not vice versa.

I have a meeting with our director of criminal mental health this week and am going to suggest that we use one of our several facilities strictly for mental health. Get people the treatment they need and try to slow or stop the revolving door of homelessness, addiction, mental health crisis and incarceration.

The problems are systemic. On top of that stigma and fear really take a toll on getting people the help they need.

The kid in Florida should have been under medical care. Same with most of the other shooters. Society has its part to play, and we need to recognize that we all have a part to play. In the schools. At home. And in our communities.

When you see the homeless, recognize their humanity. Sometimes a kind word goes a long way. If you meet someone who has a mental illness recognize that they are a person with a mental illness, not an illness with a person attached.

Persons with severe mental illnesses are some of the most difficult to engage, but most are not. You probably don';t know if someone is suffering from depression or bipolar disorder unless they go manic or depressive.

The best thing we can do is to be prepared. Know the signs. Don't be afraid to engage. But that comes with education. It took me a long time. It has been a long strange trip, but we're getting somewhere.

[Miss Marple]

ALERT!!!!

The White House just announced that President Trump will attend the White House Correspondents Dinner on April 28!

Every hanger on in DC will be trying to het a ticket. 😄😄😄

[David, Deplorable Internet Russian Dreamer Bot]

We were having this debate on my stepdaughter's Facebook page. I pointed out that armed teachers would be the best way to deal with this, but that liberals weren't actually interested in stopping school shootings, but rather in emoting over the dead bodies of the victims while calling for seizing guns. My wife chimed in and said that she was afraid that armed teachers in the classroom would result in a huge rise in school shootings – especially among high school teachers.

It took some people a long time to get the joke.

David

[DebinGA]

I missed this article re fights of the mayhem variety between Cruz and his equally wacko brother to which LE responded 20+ times in recent years. There were more red flags than a UA home game parking lot.

[Extraneus]

It's sad to contemplate how things might have turned out had the 9/11 pilots been armed, just as it is with the FL football coach, and similarly Virginia Tech, Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. Even back to the shooter in the NYC train decades ago, I forget his name. Such a waste over a b.s. politically-motivated concern.

And then they try to blame the NRA.

[boatbuilder]

Ext--my very unscientific take is that the shooters are almost universally sociopaths or schizophrenic or both; typically they are loners. Teachers have lots of "issues" like any other population of individuals (politically they are mostly crazy left, but whatever...); as a group there are not likely to be very many loner types, for the simple reason that teaching is a very social profession. Also if a teacher is developing psychological issues and start to act out, such as most of our recent mass killers have done prior to their atrocities, that is something that is likely to be noticed and acted on in the school environment.

I would think the biggest concern would be individual issues between teachers/administrators and unruly students getting a hold of weapons. But those dangers exist as it is--teachers and students can get access to weapons outside of the school environment.

Just more of my 2 cents. OK I'm up to about 4 cents now.

[boatbuilder]

Folks like the apparent single-issue troll F. Hudson are why the NRA's "no quarter" Second Amendment defense is necessary. Iggy's 11:38 is why the First Amendment is inviolate. The "slippery slope" is real and, in the case of the Second Amendment, is essentially a cliff.

[Captain Hate]

This is why he can afford to move into Clarice's neighborhood:

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2018/02/19/wow-conservative-owns-jake-tapper-in-back-and-forth-over-cnn-exploiting-teens-for-gun-control-agenda/

[Extraneus]

Flashback: CNN and MSNBC’s Enthusiastic Coverage of Russian-Sponsored Anti-Trump Rally

A check of their November 12 coverage showed both CNN and MSNBC gave enthusiastic coverage to the Russian-organized anti-Trump rally that day, with live reports every hour. Correspondents celebrated the idea that it was “a love rally,” and repeated the marchers’ anti-Trump mantras, such as: “We reject the President-elect.”

While the two liberal anti-Trump networks offered heavy coverage of the anti-Trump rally throughout the day, a check of coverage between noon and 5:00 p.m. Eastern found that the Fox News Channel offered only a short re-cap (66 seconds) at the start of their 4:00 p.m. Eastern hour.

...

Both CNN and MSNBC talked about who they thought was organizing the rally. On MSNBC a few minutes before the march began, anchor Alex Witt asked Radford: “Hey, Morgan, can you tell who has organized this rally?...Is there someone in charge here?”

“Right now, this is lots of different groups of people who have come together,” Radford explained, “with no, necessarily, official leader, and that’s been some of the criticism.”

An hour later on CNN, correspondent Brynn Gingras said the rally had been organized by “a 20-year-old student from St. John’s University here in New York....We’ve seen him several times shaking hands with police officers....It is the most organized protest that I’ve seen here in New York City.”

A little after 3:00 p.m. Eastern, Gingras marveled at the crowd size, saying she had been “texting with the person, a 20-year-old college student here in New York City who organized this protest. I’ve been texting with him, and I asked, ‘Are you impressed with the size,’ and he says ‘It’s amazing what the collective voices can spread.’”

[daddy]

Praising TM for his excellent finish this morning:

So why is the doctor eliding the difference? Why won't he put his cards on the table and tell us that an assault weapons ban is a joke and would be about as effective as addressing our nation's alcohol problem by banning Scotch and vodka but not bourbon or gin?

I don't know and I would be curious to hear his explanation. But one guess many will make is that he is simply not comfortable delivering hard truths to progressives. Which kind of disqualifies him from leading the charge of "science".

Beautiful stated, TM. Good Morning.

[jim nj]

https://www.polygraph.info/a/us-wagner-russia-syria-scores-killed/29044339.html

Recorded conversations from on the ground Wagner Group personnel.

No idea if it's real.

[boatbuilder]

Something I don't really understand: The 13 Russians and their caterer are accused of helping Trump (yes, I know...) by encouraging political rallies against Clinton, encouraging pro-Trump rallies, saying bad things about Clinton, dressing a Clinton look-alike in an orange jumpsuit, buying anti-Clinton ads on Facebook, etc. None of this would be "illegal" if done by US citizens (as far as I can tell).

Why would Trump need to "collude" with Russians to accomplish this? Wouldn't he have just paid his own people? (Wouldn't his own people have done a better job?)

And yes I know that the Russians are alleged to have spent [Dr. Evil voice] FIVE MILLION DOLLARS since 2014. That is political peanuts.

[jim nj]

HUH!

http://www.newsweek.com/syrias-assad-will-help-kurds-fight-turkey-battle-rages-afrin-811771

[Rocco]

You guys are ruining my plan to kill the teachers union. First we have to mandate that all teachers carry a concealed weapon at work. The teachers union will flip out and urge the children to walkout in solidarity with their national strike. President Trump then gives them the ultimatum to return to work or be fired. The radical loonies call his bluff and are fired. The loons are replaced with sane responsible teachers willing to keep our children safe. School shootings become a rarity because schools are no longer gun free zones!

But if you insist on sparing the loons, can we at least insist that the science, math and female gym teachers carry?

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

--Offhand, I would say that "unreasonable search and seizure" is routinely abridged under court order and following a showing of probable cause. Abused spouses get restraining orders abridging freedom of movement all the time.--

Under our legal system, if a court orders a search and seizure based on probable cause isn't it by definition not unreasonable?
And an abused spouse has demonstrated felonious behavior by his or her spouse.
In the context of the CDC it has previously attempted to intervene in the gun debate with pseudo science that sought to deprive law abiding gun owners of their rights.

Restricting the rights of the law abiding because of criminals is not a "balancing of rights". It's the abrogation of people's rights under the guise of public safety and it's done for purposes largely untethered to the actual problem supposedly being addressed. Progs simply hate private gun ownership and they use criminals to attack it.

[daddy]

If you blinked you probably missed that there was a mass shooting of Russian Churchgoers 2 days back by an "Alahu Akbar" screamer in a gun controlled former Soviet Republic. I notice when entering into the google search bar the words "gunman shoots 5 russian churchgoers", that of the many links that pop up almost all of them are from Foreign News Agencies and none of them are from the usual suspects (i.e: ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NYTimes, WaPo, etc.)

Have a look: gunman shoots 5 russian churchgoers

It's no mystery why they ignore the story, but it is another example among a million others illustrating their collective bias.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

boatbuilder,
As Alice found out, logic on the prog side of the looking glass is worse than useless.

[Buckeye]

It would be strange for a school to reveal too much, though saying security is armed would be ok, I would think.

It would be more than "ok", it would slow these whack jobs down.

[daddy]

Larry Schweikhart says that he is no longer of the opinion that the corruption at the FBI is only within the management and a few agents. He now thinks it's most of the organization with a few frightened agents willing to anonymously leak but powerless to do anything.

Miss Marple,

When you think about the FBI's 302 Interview scheme, which we now know they constantly abuse, you realize that it is such a seductive tool for enabling and promoting corruption that it would be difficult for an honest Cop to remain honest and not be drawn into using it corruptly. I think TK's comment that they utilize 302's as a means of intimidating their targets is probably true as well, so they keep this abuse inducing tool because it makes their job a hell of a lot easier than taping interviews would, and thus they keep self-corrupting themselves from the git-go.

[exdemocrat]

Why is "saying bad things about Clinton" presumptively detrimental to our political process, rather than a benefit? wouldn't that depend on whether those things are true or not?
Has the science re that truth or falsity been "settled"?

[exdemocrat]

Aren't "scary looking" weapons more troubling - even if technically no more or less inherently dangerous - because they are suggestive of the mindset of their owner? In other words, because they are a proxy for the real issue: the mental health of the potential shooter?
This is a mental health problem requiring a mental health focused approach.

[exdemocrat]

Mueller's indictment is a joke:

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/18/too-funny-special-prosecutor-mueller-patched-together-much-of-his-muh-russia-indictment-from-old-news-articles/#more-146019

[lurkersusie]

Here we go

@johncardillo
·
1h
Independent corroboration from two families in #Parkland that their kids were strongly encouraged by teachers to attend the @Everytown gun grab meeting today.

These families declined.

[Captain Hate]

In Rubin's defense she won the debate with her cats:

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2018/02/19/really-jennifer-rubins-case-against-being-armed-with-a-handgun-vs-kid-with-an-ar-15-sends-heads-to-desks/?utm_campaign=twitchywidget

[Rocco]

Ok, I was just kidding about busting up the union but I do believe that even one armed teacher can be enough of a deterrent to slow these shootings down.

[Old Lurker]

There IS a God:

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/drinking-alcohol-key-living-90-article-1.3829634

[daddy]

I think Clarice's 11:40 Federalist link is excellent, concerning Judge Sullivan's revamping of his order mandating that team Mueller give Flynn's Team all exculpatory evidence including the stuff they found prior to the plea agreement period. I think Sullivan is realizing that Team Mueller is even dirtier than he previously suspected. Here's the articles takeaway:

Friday’s order seems inconsequential, but in comparing the December 12, 2017, version to the February 16, 2018, version, one substantive change stood out.

It was subtle, but significant given the posture of this case: The revised version added one sentence specifying that the government’s obligation to produce evidence material either to the defendant’s guilt or punishment “includes producing, during plea negotiations, any exculpatory evidence in the government’s possession.”

While it is impossible to know whether Sullivan modified the standing order in response to special concerns in the Flynn case, it differs from the model text he included in his 2016 article, as well as the standing order he used most recently in a criminal case from August 2017. It is significant because it indicates that, if the government did not provide Flynn material evidence during plea negotiations, Flynn has grounds to withdraw his plea.

Looks to me like Judge Sullivan is now abiding by the Rule of Law which in my book means he's playing on Flynn's Team.

[Stephanie Nene Not your normal Grandma]

Aren't "scary looking" weapons more troubling - even if technically no more or less inherently dangerous - because they are suggestive of the mindset of their owner? In other words, because they are a proxy for the real issue: the mental health of the potential shooter?
This is a mental health problem requiring a mental health focused approach.

HELL NO. I own a "scary" looking AR-15. You are calling me mentally disturbed along with millions that enjoy this gun. Would a Hello Kitty painted version be more to your liking? It's pink and perfect for a pussy hat wearing scaredy cat afraid of 'the look.' They make and sell those, as well. I've been thinking about getting a custom painted personalization on mine. Something completely silly and totally ironic like Hello Kitty. Any suggestions

Oh and GFY for calling me mentally disturbed.

[exdemocrat]

Stephanie - if you correctly read what i wrote, i didn't.

Though your unhinged response now makes me wonder.

[narciso]

Rush described the bat (redacted) nature of homeland episode, including the very curious circumstance that carrie is forced to by sloppy tradecraft,

[Jim Eagle]

Well, in a way, Ronaldus Maximus was considered a rock star:)

https://news.yale.edu/2018/02/16/yale-conference-explores-rock-music-and-death-communism?utm_source=YNemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=yn-02-19-18

[Tom R]

From the previous thread

It reminds me of how I actually believed we had LOST the Tet Offensive until "We Were Soldiers" was released and people started discussing it on radio talk shows.

A minor nit but We Were Soldiers Once...and Young is by LTG Moore and is the story of the first major US combat operation in Vietnam in 1965. Tet was 3 years later. My battalion commander required all officers under his command to read that book. IMO it’s one of the best military history book ever written.

One of the men who served under LTG Moore was a guy by the name of 1LT Rick Rescorla. Rescorla is the infantryman shown on the cover of Moore’s book. He survived the fight because God had a plan for him many years later.

rickrescorla.com

He helped save over 2700 lives during the 9-11 WTC attacks. We need more heroes like him.

[hrtshpdbox]

The fear that teachers might flip out and kill the students is idiotic.

Absolutely right, ext; despite their pernicious union, teachers as individuals have at least proven they are reasonably productive members of society, unlike nutso kids with ammo lockers. I'm not afraid of the kind of teacher who would step up and protect their kids.

[Stephanie Nene Not your normal Grandma]

Your words: because they are suggestive of the mindset of their owner? In other words, because they are a proxy for the real issue: the mental health of the potential shooter?

Don't think I misread anything. I don't have a proxy scary gun because I have mental health issues. I have a scary gun cause I like shooting it. And because it riles libs up so much. When they originally banned 'assault weapons' back in the 80/90s I immediately went out and bought an SKS cause it was on the list and was affordable for me at that time. I'm Oppositionally Defiant for anything that attempts to abridge my rights - and to anyone. Kinda like the millions of gun owners who run out and buy another every time my gun rights are under assault.

You're damn right that when you start sticking your nose under my skirt, my first reaction is going to be forceful. No quarter on any attempt to abridge my rights.

[daddy]

Judges also lie through their teeth "ALL THE TIME".

Probably true, GUS, but as I think back through every player so far in this entire FISA/Russian Collusion fiasco, so far Judge Sullivan, per his latest rulings, is about the only guy I can come up with off the top of my head as being untainted by the stench of corruption. I'll add in Devin Nunes as well and maybe Chuck Grassley, but of the Federal employees Sullivan appears to me to be the only guy I can point to that appears intent on getting to the bottom of this thing and using the power of his office to ensure that's where we wind up.

Every other player in the DOJ/FBI/DOS, Special Counsels Office, or from the current or previous Administration I have zero faith in, as they all strike me as either corrupt or dishonest if not both. As for OIG Horowitz I'll give him a big undecided at the moment.

I hope this time next year I won't be pounding Margaritas at the Happy Mexican, mumbling to myself that old WHO song, "Won't Get Fooled Again."

[Beasts of England]

One of my FB friends made a comment that the indictments were proof of Russia meddling in the election. I want to respond (in a private message) but I also want to double-check my knowledge of the process, because he's a lawyer.

An indictment is nothing more than an allegation, correct? It's not proof, nor is it fact. We don't fine or imprison people by indictment alone, as those under indictment have the right to a trial in which they can present their defense.

I wouldn't normally question myself on the fundamentals of justice, but I hate to believe that an attorney would be so disingenuous.

(Stop laughing at that last time, damn it!!)

[lurkersusie]

Teachers union gearing up for walkouts

PARKLAND, Fla. — Pressure is growing for tougher gun-control laws after a mass shooting at a Florida high school, with thousands of angry protesters at state rallies demanding immediate action from lawmakers, and more demonstrations planned across the country in the weeks ahead.

Organizers behind the Women’s March, an anti-Trump and female empowerment protest, called for a 17-minute, nationwide walkout by teachers and students on March 14. The Network for Public Education, an advocacy organization for public schools, announced a day of walkouts, sit-ins and other events on school campuses on April 20, the anniversary of the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School in Colorado that left 12 students and one teacher dead.

Plans for the protests circulated widely on social media on Saturday, as students, parents, teachers and neighbors gathered to express their grief over the fatal shooting of 14 students and three staff members at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland. Hundreds showed up at rallies in Fort Lauderdale, about 25 miles (40 kilometers) away, and in St. Petersburg, 250 miles (400 kilometers) northwest, to demand action on gun-control legislation.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/students-teachers-plan-nationwide-walkout-gun-control-article-1.3828053

[narciso]

Mind you this came from a vox import:

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/02/new-york-times-russian-meddling-was-drop-in-an-ocean.php

[daddy]

if the libs and RINOs are so confident at how unpopular the Second Amendment is, there's a Constitutional way to jettison it.

I'm thinking there's 2 Constitutional ways to jettison it---Draft an Amendment for Repeal ala Prohibition, or the Article 5 Convention Levin's always promoting. I stand by for correction, but lets see if Option 2 doesn't start to suddenly become popular to the Left.

[exdemocrat]

Beasts - not only is an indictment is merely a series of allegations that - when completely undefended - are deemed by a grand jury to be sufficient to be tested by trial.
Further, the indictment does not accuse "Russia" - it accuses several Russian individuals (and enterprises) of breaking identity theft and registration laws.

[Captain Hate]

Teachers and students cooperating to diminish the already paltry time spent on education? Those teachers signed a contract to ensure they would be doing their job as defined by the state, no? Time to take punitive action if they deviate from that. Otherwise aren't they admitting that what they do isn't really important?

[Appalled]

Beasts:

Don't use that lawyer if you get in trouble. An indictment is not proof of anything. Otherwise, there would be a lot more ham sandwiches executed in your state.

[exdemocrat]

Steph - the point of my post was that the gun-grabbers inadvertently reveal themselves - and reveal the truth - by being illogically hostile to weapons that merely look scary.

[Beasts of England]

Thanks, exdemocrat!!