NY Times Continues The Honest National Debate On Gun Control

The flailing NY Times wonders whether the US could be more like Australia, which famously banned semiautomatic rifles in 1996:

An Australian Model on Guns? Trump and Turnbull Reject Comparisons

The Australian PM gave the safe answer:

“It’s a completely different context, historically, legally and so forth,” Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said when asked about his country’s example during a news conference. “We are very satisfied with our laws,” he added. “But we certainly don’t presume to provide policy or political advice on that matter here. You have an amendment to your Constitution that deals with gun ownership. You have a very, very different history.”

The Times then provided a bit of context:

Australia embarked on one of the world’s most expansive efforts to rid a society of gun violence after a mass shooting in the Tasmanian town of Port Arthur on April 28, 1996, left 35 dead and many other injured. At that time, it was Australia’s 13th mass shooting in less than two decades and the deadliest such incident to date in the Western world. Even in the United States since then, only two episodes have eclipsed that death toll, the massacres in an Orlando gay nightclub in 2016 and at a Las Vegas concert last year.

In response to the 1996 shooting, John Howard, then Australia’s conservative prime minister, moved quickly, introducing a federal law to officially make guns a privilege, not a right. Gun owners were forced to provide a valid reason for owning a weapon, such as farming or hunting. Licensing rules were tightened, a 28-day waiting period for gun purchases was imposed and a national gun registry was established.

Semiautomatic rifles, like the one used at Port Arthur in 1996 and in Parkland last week, were severely restricted, and Australia engaged in a buyback program that took more than 650,000 firearms off the streets and generated attention around the world.

Gun control advocates in the United States regularly point to Australia when the other side says that new laws would not make a difference. President Barack Obama cited Australia as a model after a shooting in Oregon in 2015 and Hillary Clinton, running to succeed him against Mr. Trump, said the Australian approach was “worth considering.”

13 mass shootings in less than two decades and none afterwards. OK, impressive. But left unasked and unanswered is this: in the US we have had plenty of mass shootings with handguns (e.g., Giffords, VA Tech). How did the Australian ban on rifles end those, or why do we think a ban on rifles would end mass shooting here? 

The answer is that unlike the US, Australia had very strict handgun controls for years prior to the 1996 semiautomatic rifle ban. I haven't run down all 13 mass shootings mentioned above but per Wikipeda, four infamous ones - Milperra, Hoddle Street, Queen Street, and Strathfield -  involved shotguns or rifles, not handguns. So sure, banning semiautomatic rifles would be expected to make a major impact.

But don't take my word for it! Jerry Ratcliffe is a crime prevention authority who Tweeted this last fall:

Gun crime in the UK and Australia was already low because of strict gun control. Emphasis on strict gun control, not banning. Key.

I probably shouldn't single out the NY Times. This sort of omission helps bolster their narrative but even John Lott failed to make that obvious point in a recent Fox News column titled:

US gun control advocates exaggerate benefits of Australia's gun restrictions

Well. Plenty of people on one side of the debate grasp that "assault weapons", semiautomatic rifles and pistols are all deadly and that often one could substitute for another. For example, many people believe that if Nikolas Cruz had been obliged to carry a semiautomatic rifle with a wooden stock and no mount for a bayonet or grenade launcher it would not have been a fearsome "assault rifle" but seventeen people would still be dead. On the other side of the debate are folks like the NY Times editors fulminating that since he used an "assault weapon" we need to ban those.

Now, the Las Vegas shooter was firing at long range and needed a semiautomatic rifle. Cruz, at Parkland, probably could have killed a lot of people with handguns, which also seems to be the case for most of the recent shootings. Per the Mother Jones mass shooting data base going back to 1982, of 97 incidents involving 143 weapons, over half were handguns.

Banning semiautomatic rifles, if the Times wants to back that, may well reduce the number of mass shootings and reduce the casualties. Just for example, the four shameful cops at Parkland might have entered the school with pistols drawn if they heard handgun, rather than rifle fire. However, a reduction on the number of mas shootings similar to that in Australia seems utterly implausible.

PILING ON: Slicks Versus Hicks: As an illustration of the rural/urban divide The Times says that the rifle ban "took more than 650,000 firearms off the streets", although most of those mean street were in rural areas where people were hunting.

And do note the absence of terrifying 'assault weapon' among the stacks of semiautomatic rifles turned in.

Finally, a companion piece contrasting Australia and the US also fails to note the pre-1996 handgun rules.

Comments

[Buckeye]

That was the famous chief lesson of Columbine: don't wait for backup or plan, immediately enter the building and find the shooters.
Should have been obvious.

Better yet, be in the building, armed and prepared when the perp enters.

[Texas Liberty Gal]

1st!

[Texas Liberty Gal]

Tie!

[Buford Gooch]

23rd?

[henry]

Funny thing, my niece's Australian inlaws all want to visit my farm to shoot.

[henry]

Also, OPM crisis nearer in CA. It seems CALPers is near insolvency.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-24/former-calpers-board-members-shocking-admission-calpers-near-insolvency-it-needs

[Buckeye]

Firearm confiscation here, like what happened in Australia, would trigger a second revolution.

There are times when I think it is overdue.

[Captain Hate]

Let Kabbalah Harris, Pelosi Galore, DiFi, Moonbeam and Schiff bail out Calpers. Not my problem. My retirement's doing fine thanks to the choices I made and, if it wasn't, it would be up to me to fix it.

[Another Bob]

Bail it out with my money?

[Account Deleted]

As the most recent version of the National Bi-Lateral Harangue on "Guns" devolves into the minutiae of bullet speed, what "other Countries" do about "guns", disinformed screeds about the "corrupt" NRA----

I'm reminded that we conservatives are on solid ground, exempt from the "wisdom" of the scripted "cheeldren", because (from AT link below):

"
If the practical result is that my rights are inarguably infringed, why would your feelings, my feelings, or anyone else's feelings have any relevance whatsoever?

This is not a discussion.

These are my rights.

How you feel about the exercising of my rights doesn't matter at all.

And if it is decided that your feelings warrant the legal erosion of my rights, isn't it clear that what we're talking about are not, in fact, "rights" as understood by our Founders, but allowances that government either permits or rescinds based upon the whims of a perceived majority opinion?"

Worth a close full read.

I'm now coherently "armed" to ground out any unsolicited drivel in public places around here which splays onto my path.

The argument is an Elmer Fudd shotgun blast to the face of some lame ass who wants to pimp and proselytize about "why children have to pay for the greedy NRA's gun obsession."

KER_BLAM_SKI, Comrade.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/02/your_feelings_have_nothing_to_do_with_the_second_amendment.html

[Another Bob]

FWIW Jerry Ratcliffe looks like a typical swamp academic to me, and no kind of “crime prevention expert”.

Can he explain the difference between “strict gun control” and “banning”? ‘Cause I’m going to bet they’ll be pretty indistinguishable.

Case in point is NYC. Technically, no ban. But just try to get a handgun if you’re not “connected”. Then DC, which tried and failed at outright ban, then required that the gun be stored in a nonfunctional state that rendered it useless for and practical purpose.

[Frau Nur die Gedanken sind frei]

K Kid - I have a contribution to your yearly band name competition. It's from my younger granddaughter a senior (physics/astronomy) at UWA:

Cis Scum

I told her I want a T-shirt!

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

In reference to SBW's late comments on the last thread and to demonstrate the frequent weirdness of gun nomenclature, the .223 Remington and the 5.56 Nato [virtually identical rounds] both have a nominal bullet diameter of .224 inches.
The 22 long rifle, known as the 5.6x15mm in metric countries is actually .223 in diameter.
And both .223 and .224 inches are both over 5.7 mm.

Of course the .357 Magnum and the .38 Special both have a bullet diameter of .357 so at least one round of the five is actually named accurately.

[GUS]

I'm still waiting for the FULL COMMIE NY SLIMES to tell us about OBAMA/HOLDER allowing AK-47's scary looking guns into Mexico to KILL MEXICANS and American border Agents. Brian Terry is dead.

Why isn't the FUCKING SLIMES seeking OBAMA and HOLDER's heads on a pike. BURN THEM!!!!!

[Frau Die Wacht am Bein]

CH sez : "Not my problem."

It's mine and my husbands's.

FOB and mile-high club buddy Ron Burkle "helped" direct Calpers:

For example, the California Public Employees’ Retirement System, or CalPERS, invested $1.34 billion in the five funds Yucaipa Cos. raised from 2001 to 2008.

As of September 30, 2016, after factoring in returns over the years, the value of that investment is $1.5 billion. That amounts to a total return of about 11 percent — over more than a decade, according to CalPERS. During that span, Yucaipa made money investing in Whole Foods and other entities, while it lost on now-bankrupt A&P.

CalPERS declined to comment.

https://nypost.com/2017/06/08/ron-burkles-penguins-score-more-than-his-investors/

[glasater]

D FISA memo released!

[Account Deleted]

Re: "It seems CALPers is near insolvency."

Back in 2006 I acquired a provisional teaching certificate from the California State Board of Indoctrination.

The mission was to do some fact finding for our local elementary insurrectionist parental committee building a case on our principal comingling district funds with our enormously successful PTA fundraising.

So for about six months I went around to three different districts subbing K-12. I'd meet parents, teachers, PTA leaders and the like.

The district offices were gossip hubs re CALPERS.

By 2006, district lifers--- be they teachers or general admin clerks and the like--- knew that the state had screwed the pooch with past sins of prior governors (Enron electricity futures etc) and the retirement kitty was taking a dead cat bounce.

Like I did during my public years in Illinois and Vermont, the Cali folks were opting into private annuities and foregoing the CALPERS route to their Golden Years.

Actually met many "small time" investors who learned how to use e*Trade and other systems to manage part of their portfolio, too.

CALPERS is just one more cattle car used to herd the public for the sake of a privileged few.

The acting Sheriff of Hayward, CA came out of retirement to take that job (nearly $200K plus his pension check as former Hayward Police Chief before becoming acting/permanent Sheriff), then left that job to return as acting Chief of Hayward Police to the tune of over $300,000 per year until they found a full time chief of Police for the city.... double dipping and jacking up his mid-six figure retirement monthly check in the process.

That's for life and his pension will go to the Mrs should she outlive his worthless ass. (Went to HS with him. Always was a get-over artist with sociopathic tendency. Now he's just a 6'8" thief.)

The privileged few are taking down the CALPERS system *NOW*.

Not limited to state either.

Waste Management Corporation's pension fund, according to a lifer I graduated from high school with is only 58% funded.

He's been working for a second job to build some seniority in janitorial supervision (something he can do at night while he gets ready to tap out at WM) getting hired before he'd see nothing but low level pay, because he's not retiring in 3 years@ age 65.

Retirement income will not be what it was projected for him back in '87 when they signed him on as a jr. white collar manager.

Public sector "elites" get rich and lower end slubbos in both public and private sector "retirement plans" get horned.

Many many Americans don't know the difference between a balanced budget, a budget deficit, and LOCAL-STATE-NATIONAL debt.

Many Americanos cannot comprehend that at just the Federal level alone, every Americano alive right now (counted in the "Racist Census") is on the hook for over $150K *EACH*. (Bill Bonner over at Agora Publishing recently cited a stat of $177,000 per American.)

Ultimately, that tab must be paid---- by somebody at some time.

Add in the gluttony of municipalities, county governments, and state bureaucracies and it's far much more.

Ah hell. Preachin' to the JOM choir again. Forgive please. ;)

IHTFP.

[sbwaters]

Ig, I wasn’t going to confusle people by explaining that the .223 is .224. That seems so post-modern.

;-)

[Account Deleted]

Okay Frau! It's on the list...

Hey--- I always translate your German handles, Frau. Frau..."frei" from Goggle translate lit me up: "Woman Only the thoughts are free."

I can think of three ways to interpret that and one would get me slapped. :>)

[Manuel Transmission]

As a followup to what I posted from a pal yesterday, we have another bud who has spent his career doing Russian law of all sorts (Chitown lurker has met him). At lunch yesterday, I asked him about the Russian adoption mess. Not only was he involved with the Magnitsky Act, he had no allusions about the mess the kids represented as discussed here. His main concern was that however impaired they were, he feared for their almost certain demise, if left in Russia. Ugh.

[DebinGA]

8 men shot, 2 critically in Chicago overnight. The overwhelming prevalence of stolen guns used in shooting crimes barely deserves a mention. Ditto outing the judges who order negligible jail time for gun stealers, illegal gun sellers, illegal gun buyers, or illegal gun shooters in every blue hell in America.

[Account Deleted]

"That amounts to a total return of about 11 percent — over more than a decade, according to CalPERS." Is that even passbook savings interest?

We have a bond that we offered privately 6 years ago, convertible, at 8% annual interest, and we paid out interest monthly. Spensive yes, but we didn't want to give away any of the company. And it worked out. RISK vs REWARD.

CALPERS' risk is all born by the annuitant. Betcher azz the fund managers make a killing with that billion and change "under management."

We were brand spankin' new at the time of our first offering and no one trusted us. (That I've come to learn is healthy skepticism.) Minimum buy in: $10,000. We're going back to that well in a couple months with plenty of satisfied investors.

We did well. They did well. CALPERS?

Put your money in a mattress and buy a gun. LOL

That 11% return they were crowing about probably is built on accounting similar in mean-spiritedness as the Useless Federal indices for Consumer Prices and (equally cynical) Cost of Living that do not fully account for most of the prices/costs of "food" and energy.

IHTFP

[lurkersusie]

Just the facts

@PoliticalShort
Nunes Statement on Release of Democrat Memo with point by point refutation.
https://t.co/JjXyslktSz?amp=1

[Account Deleted]

CALPERS' Happy Holidays, Sucka! Pic:

[Extraneus]

Hey, SB, congratulations on the sharpshooter medal you posted in the other thread. That's quite an accomplishment.

I did some marksmanship in the Boy Scouts but never got the merit badge.

My father bought me a semi-auto .22 when I was 12. We used to shoot it in the basement, where my dad piled a few bags of sand. I kept it in my closet with a few boxes of rounds all through school. Never once thought of using it on anything bigger than a rat.

I bought my son a shotgun when he was 16, and let him keep it in his room with a box of shells. So far he hasn't killed anyone either.

Btw, why is a shooting of 17 innocent people 100 times worse than 17 shootings of one innocent person each?

[Account Deleted]

What illegal guns? What Blue Hell?

[sbwaters]

why is a shooting of 17 innocent people 100 times worse than 17 shootings of one innocent person each?

I was told there would be no Chicago math.

[Account Deleted]

I never killed anybody shootin' but i managed to put a .22 round into one Bubba's ample love handle as he tried to poach one of my steers during deer season.

Meant to warn him....he was walking behind the ass end of that steer; he was wide enough to reassure me that i wouldn't hit my property by mistake. He lurched left at the last minute.

The rest is history.

The year before, my 93 year old neighbor AJ Short, did the same thing to that a-hole. Our land adjoined. We were about 60 miles SE of East St. Louis. Back then IT was the Chicago of the midwest.

We held our own proportionally. No anti-gun noise neither. ;)

[James D.]

Not my problem

It will be once the Feds start bailing out CALPers and the other bankrupt state pensions.

Anyone here doubt Ryan and McTurtle would sign on to that, or that the courts will uphold it?

[art in newport -]

James, you really think Wisconsin and Kentucky are willing to bail out California? Or that Trump would sign the bill? I can't see it myself.

[art in newport -]

James, you really think Wisconsin and Kentucky are willing to bail out California? Or that Trump would sign the bill? I can't see it myself.

[art in newport -]

Well, now I'm a member of the double-post cub :(

[henry]

Wisconsin and Kentucky voters won't want to bail out Illinois-- and IL borders both.

[James D.]

The voters there won't, I agree.

But I'm afraid that enough of their Reps and Senators probably will be willing to do it. With all the Dems voting for it, do you think there won't be enough GOPeErs who would sign on to override a veto? I can easily picture it.

And I'm sure the 9th Circuit will find some new and previously unimagined Constitutional right to have your bankrupt pension covered by citizens in other states...and I can see John Roberts going along with it, given his track record.

[Extraneus]

Nolte — Poll: 44% Already Approve of Arming Teachers…and Trump Is Just Warming Up

Already, a full 44 percent of Americans approve of arming teachers, while only 50 percent are opposed, according to a CBS poll. These results might seem like bad news to those in favor of arming qualified teachers and school personnel, but until now, the debate has been one-sided. Eager to keep the hate directed at the NRA, our hysterical, anti-gun media are quick to shut down this debate before it even begins.

Writing at the far-left Washington Post, Greg Sargent vehemently opposes arming teachers. “The suggestion that we arm teachers in response to school shootings is not just a profoundly, hideously awful idea,” but he also worries the idea is picking up steam.

It should, since it's the only logical idea put forward so far.

[henry]

Ext, the other option is to lock up juvenile offenders. But raysiss or something.

[Extraneus]

You'd have to lock up an awful lot of people in order to completely prevent one sicko from escaping confinement.

[Extraneus]

At least David Brooks has it figured out.

“It’s a demented idea. I mean, aside from everything else, the dangers of it, just think of how it changes the student-teacher relationship to see them packing a gun. I mean, it’s truly demented.”

Changes from what to what? Non-guardian to guardian?

I wish he would have said whatever he had in his head after that sentence.

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2018/02/24/brooks-allowing-teachers-to-carry-guns-is-truly-demented/

[Captain Hate]

Didn't mean to make it personal, Frau; although I knew there was a good chance someone here would be impacted. Like James said, I can easily see an "abandoning Calpers is not who we are" statement in the future and there's not a damn thing I can do to ward that off. If so I hope that at least someone complicit gets the Madoff treatment instead of a Corzine or McAwful situation.

[DebinGA]

Charging parents with failure to secure weapons from dependent children, with mandatory jail time for parents of kids with documented mental issues involving psych meds, might provide a teachable moment.

[Pagar]

IMO,every child in that Florida school knows if that coach that was killed had been carrying there would be more students that had a chance to be alive today.

[narciso]

So the Dem memo, tries to stuff the grizzly back in the bottle, classifying among others the wallaby for minister, the svr official page had contacted in the states, the name of the case, the contact person in Rome, they are trying to pull a 1985 Dallas season.

[sbwaters]

I had let my NRA membership lapse when I was still a teen. I rejoined several years ago because of an irrational assault on the Second Amendment, led by Democrats.

I suspect that many more will join this time for the same reason and with the same resolve as King Leonidas I.

[exdemocrat]

lurkersusie - good to see Nunes include this much-overlooked point in his rebuttal:

"Finally, notwithstanding FBI’s confidence in Steele, at the time of the initial FISA application the agency had virtually no visibility into the credibility of Steele’s sub-sources and sub-subsources who originated the dossier’s allegations."

In fact, those "sub sources" and "sub-subsources" are better described as simply "the sources" upon which the entire warrant depended.

[JLP]

Long time lurker...

What puzzles me in these school shooting discussions is the unwillingness to question motive. Both sides of the political aisle want to resort to band-aid, "mechanical," solutions (the left wants gun control; the right wants more security in schools, etc.).

As has been shown over and over again a person with motive will find a way around every "mechanical" restriction. Confiscate all the guns, and the killer will resort to other means: explosives, knives, lethal gas, etc., etc. Or find a way around the security measures.

After all, 30-40-50 years ago we had Cruz-like unstable persons, but we didn't have mass school shootings. What changed? I submit that formerly it was not lack of exposure to guns (or other killing means), nor was it lack of security, but rather it is our culture changes that provide the motive.

The recent rash of copy-cat attempts suggests that it is the media's hyping of sensationalism and left wing agendas that is a large part of the motive problem.

Likewise, I think the current cultural obsession with whipping up anger over social justice causes (the media again) contributes to the motive for some, i.e., anyone can see himself as a victim that is justified in seeking retribution and revenge - whatever the perceived "wrong."

Back in the 1960s the hippy manta was "If it feels good, just do it" (i.e., no boundaries on right or wrong). We, as a society and culture (and most particularly, the younger generations), have long abandoned the cornerstones of knowing right from wrong, and the concept of personal responsibility. These are not motivators, but their absence give permission to be motivated to pursue evil purposes, or if you will, they were motive suppressors.

Nothing, in my opinion, is ever going to really solve this problem until the motives are questioned, studied and understood. It ain't the gun; it's the motive!

[exdemocrat]

Donald J. Trump
‏
Verified account

@realDonaldTrump
8m8 minutes ago
More
The Democrat memo response on government surveillance abuses is a total political and legal BUST. Just confirms all of the terrible things that were done. SO ILLEGAL!

[Catsmeat]

narciso--(pooh on typepad, as my comment was lost)--but regarding the last thread--you may be being too hard on Empson, who was literate and civilized and would have hated Derrida. His Some Versions of Pastoral is really wonderful.

[matt - deplore me if you must]

Let's talk about real gun control. Eric Holder allowed over 2,700 firearms to walk across the border, many of them to the Sinaloa Cartel. Over 250 Mexican citizens (ca 2012) had died by those guns, and a Mexican Army helicopter was shot down using a .50 cal sniper rifle.

From the moment those guns were purchased every one of them was meant to take human life. Think about that for a minute.

[Manuel Transmission]

I've mostly ignored the back and forth about calibers, but the missing factor is, like with many things in this earth, energy:

[Another Bob]

JLP, don’t think anyone here would disagree much.

The root cause appears to me anyway to be a desire by big gov types to manufacture victim groups that need “protecting”, and in so doing create dependent classes that require ever more intrusive government. Cruz therefore can’t be a perp he has to be a victim.

Pressure to remove arms from citizens just allows the big gov takeover run a bit more smoothly, so all opportunities are taken there.

[Miss Marple the Deplorable]

JLP,

I would agree with you about the copycat killings/attempts. As I said earlier today, there were 6 in the state of Indiana alone last week. Fortunately, concerned relatives, friends and others reported people and they were stopped.

I have noticed the use of social media for whipping up anger. It's why I don't engage much anymore on Twitter, but simply use it as an information gathering service. It's truly a frightening symptom of our age.

[Extraneus]

Brooks is the type of guy who doesn't understand the feeling of protecting people. I know there are plenty of people like that. The cowardly cops at the school may qualify.

I bet that coach understood the feeling, though. And the helplessness of being disarmed when it counted.

I once spent a summer teaching a class of retarded "boys" aged 21-25. Never experienced that protective feeling until another teacher - a babe I was in the process of seducing - abused one of the guys. I almost punched her out.

Brooks probably would have slunk away and let it slide, even if it were his own wife or kids. Therefore it's "demented" to think that CCW qualified teachers might want to carry in school.

[GUS]

Obama and MAlder PURPOSELY betrayed their oaths of office and PURPOSELY broke the law. I understand what they were doing.

Why are they not held accountable.

Imagine NIXON had done what OBAMA and HOLDER did.

[Manuel Transmission]

Oops, that didn't work:

I've mostly ignored the back and forth about calibers, but the missing factor is, like with many things in this earth, energy:

(You'll have to do the right click thingy.)

Note that a .22LR is about 1/10 of a .223. And I'd want about double that for deer hunting. (We never considered a .30-30 worthy of the task, at least out in the open country of MT.)

[Ed]

Carrying forward.

For: Jane | February 24, 2018 at 08:48 AM, also Jane | February 24, 2018 at 01:05 PM

(and Stephanie, momto2, et al)

Wagon Wheel Lodge, Rockton, Illinois, just a few miles south of Beloit, WI, (Beloit in Paul Ryan's district), about 1962 or '63. Curling rink. Friend of mine liked to curl. Looked like fun. Never tried it. He and I used to sweep the snow off the ice on Rock River to make an improvised hockey rink and also mazes to play tag. Just two of us, about midnight, Rockford, IL. Once we skated up river a couple miles through about 2" of light snow. Somewhere north of the Auburn St bridge I heard an ominous cracking and creaking under my feet. A tributary stream flowing into the river from around the Woodward Governor plant was warmer than the river, and thinning the ice. Had it cracked and if I fell through, I could have been gone without a trace. Strong current beneath the smooth ice. Stuff you do at that age.

[DebinGA]

Brooks' using "demented" to describe the idea of armed teachers is bizarre. I can see "impractical" or "foolhardy", but the idea is not insane, which is what "demented" means.

[GUS]

Brooks was known to cheat on his wife, with an intern or something.
Oh, it was his research ASSistant. I guess his 27 year marriage wasn't his thing.

[Jim Eagle]

Do you all find it beyond interesting that the left (including Brooksie)have all of sudden decided that their soul mates (teachers and their union) aren't responsible enough to handle a firearm and the consequence of using it?

Talk about paradox.

BTW, just completed my annual drive to hell and back by doing 511 miles from Roanoke Rapids to Southampton in 3 1/2 more hours than it took me to go 594 miles from Hammock to RR yesterday. The hell started, of course as we left the last exit to Fredericksburg (how appropriate, since he was my shotgun) and continued until we went through the Harbor Tunnel in Bald'more. From there all the way up the NJ turnpike fine but then the first, second and third ring of hell.

The Goethels Bridge, Staten Island and then the Belt Parkway. Why I do this, I have no idea. But if you visit hell just hope you don't have to crawl through.

Never again. Now I have to figure how to tell Mrs. JiB that:)

[Buford Gooch]

KK: "We were about 60 miles SE of East St. Louis."

Out in the Okawville area?

[Extraneus]

NRA: Corporate Boycotts of NRA a ‘Shameful Display of Political and Civic Cowardice’

On February 24 Breitbart News reported a summary list of companies planning to end their relationship with the NRA:

First National Bank of Omaha
Enterprise Rent-A-Car
Symantec
Metlife
Delta Airlines
United
Best Western
Alamo Rent a Car
Avis
Allied Van Lines
Budget
Chubb Insurance
Hertz
North American Van Lines
Paramount Rx
SimpliSafe
TrueCar

Statement from the NRA ends as follows:

Let it be absolutely clear. The loss of a discount will neither scare nor distract one single NRA member from our mission to stand and defend the individual freedoms that have always made America the greatest nation in the world.

Btw, which rental car companies haven't yet identified?

[Account Deleted]

Sorry Gooch I flipped my 9... Union and Pulaski counties were where my ground was... Cobden and Ullin IL respectively.

Knew the Wilson family from Okawville..taught their son Marlon in farm power at Rend Lake College (just south of Mt. Vernon) 1979-81.

You from there mebbe?

[Beasts of England]

I notice that the monitory report is titled 'Correcting the Record'!! It's also marked 'Top Secret//NoForn', but there are no paragraph markers for the classified portions. Oh, and it's released on Saturday - has to be much worse for the dems than a Friday afternoon release!!

[Buckeye]

Jack

In three years Frederick will be off to school and you will have more options.

[Clarice Feldman]

the sources are best described as russian operatives if Schiff were honest.

[sbwaters]

MT, you are correct about muzzle energy. But whether a .22LR at 40 gr. times 1000 fps or a .223 at 55 gr times 3000 fps, one does not want to be on the receiving end.

My point is that arguing the horror of assault weapon damage is disingenuous. Guns demand they be operated with respect. Some many of us learned to do that. Some never will.

Out of ignorance or political malice, do not penalize those of us who are responsible.

[Extraneus]

Someone mentioned the other day about how after 9/11 cops and firefighters were assumed to all be heroes.

Obviously, most of the ones who entered the WTC that day didn't expect the buildings to crumble. If they did, many would have hesitated, just like the Broward deputies who hid behind their cars.

Not all cops and firefighters are heroes. Probably only a small fraction are.

Banking on a hero to answer your 911 call isn't really very smart.

[Jim Eagle]

I will bet that Schiff and all the Dems know more Russian operatives than all the Republicans in Congress or the WH. Anyone want to take that bet?

I see the NRA has decided to fight back and not only without gloves but against the failing Broward County Sheriff and his cowardly department. Popcorn worthy, I would think.

And I agree with Ex. My first responsibility to me and my family is my action not 911's response.

[Another Bob]

Further ex, had the fire captains and chiefs suspected collapse was a reasonable likelihood, would they have sent them in in the first place? Would any have defied the order to stay out?

I agree completely that “hero” is a seriously overused term - especially post 9:11.

[Extraneus]

Surber:

Bake the damned cake for the NRA, Mister Banker

So, First National Bank of Omaha thinks it can blacklist the National Rifle Association and refuse to do business with

Uh-uh.

Not in 21st century America.

The courts have ruled that a business has no discretion in whom it will do business with.

If a Christian baker must bake a wedding cake for gay weddings, then you had better believe a bank must do business with the NRA.

They're not refusing to do business, just ending discounts, which actually should be illegal since they favor certain groups over everyone else.

Wow, what a class-action suit! Any takers here?

[DrJ]

Guns demand they be operated with respect.

In my world, that describes a chemistry lab. Most things are innocuous, some are potentially harmful, and others are downright nasty and have to be treated with great care and the proper equipment.

But you have to know what you are doing, and respect the materials you work with. Otherwise you can get into trouble very quickly.

[Porchlight]

The rental car companies are especially stupid in making this move. Most people rent cars very rarely if at all, because they simply don't have the need.

People angered by this move will stop using those companies. But no one who supports the move is going to go out and rent a car they don't need in order to reward the coward companies with extra business.

The downside is so much greater than the upside.

[lurkersusie]

First National Bank
First National Bank
@FNBOmaha
Replying to @TopRopeTravis and @NRA
Customer feedback has caused us to review our relationship with the NRA. As a result, First National Bank of Omaha will not renew its contract with the National Rifle Association to issue the NRA Visa Card.

[lurkersusie]

J.R. Salzman
@jrsalzman
·
3h
So Bank of Omaha, which issues the credit cards for Scheels, a sporting goods store that sells tons of guns and ammo and accessories, is boycotting the NRA? Are you sure you thought this thing through?

[Porchlight]

Hi DrJ! Good to see you.

[lurkersusie]

They gave this kid a blue check mark

David Hogg
David Hogg
@davidhogg111
·
4h
Better Idea: Spend your spring break in Puerto Rico, it's a beautiful place with amazing people. They could really use the economic support that the government has failed to provide. #SpringBreak2018 #SBinPurtoRico #itsspelled PUERTO RICO

[Account Deleted]

Small point re arming *anybody* military, LE, or civvie: training is all relative, depending on the quality of what one receives and how they are practiced and drilled on every aspect of managing and using weapons.

With regards to arming teachers, especially public school teachers, the state certification boards will weigh in on that.

I can guarantee (if the "arming certain teachers" argument gains traction) there will be a huge push to train and qualify any public school teacher candidate.

Potential Big revenue source for the teacher ed institutions.

And the prospective "off-campus" trainers will be looking to monopolize training contracts.

Then there's the certification programs for teaching trainers how to train and teach teacher certification candidates. Proliferation is the name of that game.

The key will be quality of the training and competence to be demonstrated so that *EVERY* teacher on-site is packing according to some kind of revolving schedule--- the way any shared responsibility is managed in school.

For just selective teachers to be armed, and perhaps even making it voluntary will result in shortages in certain areas etc etc.

And the shee-shee candidate crowd will find one more elitist reason to gravitate toward schools "where there aren't so many icky guns."

Human behavior will factor into any solution right?

I think mandatory firearms training and qualifying practical exams would in no small way impact the culture of training public school teachers---- it might even wake many of them up about educational practice and our Constitution.

But constructive, 7 Centers focused, go-against-the-grain practices can lead to huge results.

My own experience as a teacher was to go against the grain: don't teach for the test; teach "learning how to learn" and the tests took care of themselves.

Train and qualify teaching candidates to protect and defend, instead of just being "armed" or "not armed." The safety culture will become a mindset imparted to our young. Same thing.

We had the highest scores at every level where i was brought in long-term with "problem LEARNERS" (I loathe that term.)

If there had been 10,000 certified Cali teachers doing the same thing as me, including movement drills 10 minutes out of every hour to teach physical and mental discipline, we would have changed the culture of middle school test preparation.

But the teachers have to know the techniques, understand how to teach for AFFECT, and end up with students developing and demonstrating mastery of key skills.

Most don't learn that: they learn lesson planning, classroom management (ha!)and content specialization.

Two brain centers instead of all 7 must be used. The way I was taught, we learned to use all 7 and communicate with all 7.... students will take a bullet for ya when you do that as a teacher.

It isn't this smarmy lisping "We love Ms/Mr so-and-so." and then walk all over em.

Requiring a martial art like marksmanship and weapons training to teacher candidates would bring about a genuine culture change.

How many teachers inside that building in FLA that day were behaving just like the Coward Bounty Sheriff's dept.

The circumstances may have been different but the mindset was the same.

"I'm not going to [die] for anybody."

Insert any personally undesireable contribution for [die] and that's what is heard in so many of our public schools, all in the name of setting "good boundaries."

Like I said. A minor point--- trivializing the momentous and complicatin' the obvious. Yessiree.

Kevlar vest and a SWAT helmet hangin on a coat rack near Teach's desk makes more sense as a coordinated, tactical complement *INSIDE* the school than hiring random security guards.

Teachers are where the rubber meets the road with regard to their flocks inside those classrooms.

Lots to think about. Maybe I'll draft a plan for our local elementary school and start some fightin! Yee-haw. C'mon now!

Hey there are a lot of guns up here in the hills over North Berkeley. We are on the deer migration paths. And late summer, you can hear them shotguns takin' out those lettuce poachers, two,three at a time.

[narciso]

Yes that's not accurate in any language, his pal Cameron kaskey, is also a model of civility.

[Davod]

Matt. When Fast and Furious is mentioned don't forget it is worse. They did the same in Guatemala and Honduras.

[Account Deleted]

"planning" to discontinue their relationship with the NRA..... wait til the "Target" bathroom effect takes hold....yippi kai yai mofos.

[narciso]

Yes do they have to prove they love the taste of shoe leather, did this have anything to do with buffet, I wonder.

[narciso]

So it turns first national bank was on the hook for a certain trade practice, that was settled back in July 2016, with the treasury.

[lurkersusie]

NRA Statement

FAIRFAX, VA – The more than five million law-abiding members of the National Rifle Association have enjoyed discounts and cost-saving programs from many American corporations that have partnered with the NRA to expand member benefits.

Since the tragedy in Parkland, Florida, a number of companies have decided to sever their relationshipwith the NRA, in an effort to punish our members who are doctors, farmers, law enforcement officers, fire fighters, nurses, shop owners and school teachers that live in every American community. We are men and women who represent every American ethnic group, every one of the world’s religions and every form of political commitment.

The law-abiding members of the NRA had nothing at all to do with the failure of that school’s security preparedness, the failure of America’s mental health system, the failure of the National Instant Check System or the cruel failures of both federal and local law enforcement.

Despite that, some corporations have decided to punish NRA membership in a shameful display of political and civic cowardice. In time, these brands will be replaced by others who recognize that patriotism and determined commitment to Constitutional freedoms are characteristics of a marketplace they very much want to serve.

Let it be absolutely clear. The loss of a discount will neither scare nor distract one single NRA member from our mission to stand and defend the individual freedoms that have always made America the greatest nation in the world.

[narciso]

Not buffett but something just as interesting

http://omaha.com/money/right-at-home-in-his-new-role-clark-lauritzen-is/article_d8c68093-b62e-5170-b53c-fd7938dbef35.html

[Jim Eagle]

Young Mr. Hogg should put his money where his mouth is an visit PR now. I am sure there are water deliveries and other things he could do to help out. This fucking jackwagon needs a come down now before he becomes the Left's version of Mother Teresa.

[sbwaters]

My experience with defensive shooting practice is that it is humbling -- how much time it takes, how distance affects accuracy, how easy it is to miss, how careful you have to be, how threats have to be evaluated, how careful you have to be about no-shoots, how much respect you need for firearms, and so on.

What such practices are good for is helping people realize continuous, repeated practice matters.

[Account Deleted]

lurkersusie: fuckin A!

5 million consumers voting with their cash.

Then we'll whipsaw their candidates in local and state elections.

I'd say this statement from the NRA sets a tone for the squishes in Congress to hold the line.

Kevlar "Mini-ball" Kid

[Jim Eagle]

Well, Clark is an asshole first then a grad of HBS and Princeton. BTW, in both institutions they do not teach simple facts of doing business with average Americans, you do not piss off more than half for the other dickheads that are a minority.

Now, where is my case study I did?

[henry]

Business Schools teach "corporate social responsibility" to all the "stakeholders" since 1990 or before. Profit? Providing value to customers? That is robber baron stuff. SMH. Yet we see the results in Silicon Valley and with these anti NRA corps.

[GUS]

Test

[GUS]

What changed? Why did these LIBTARD company execs give discounts to NRA members before, but not now.
What did I do, to have the perq taken away??

[lurkersusie]

"We have been betrayed, misled, and ignored while they are feeding the public trough. There is no end to what the ruling class will take away to preserve their power and their paycheck."

https://t.co/QO9h4qGfr8?amp=1

[Buford Gooch]

KK, not from there, just from the area. Currently live about 25 miles due north of St Louis (Illinois side). For various jobs, I've traveled the area and know all the small towns around.

[Buford Gooch]

KK Graduated Carbondale, so went through the area a lot.

[lurkersusie]

Dear United Airlines And Delta: If You Really Oppose Guns, Disarm Your Pilots And Crews
"Guns for me, but not for thee"
by MICHAEL J. KNOWLES
February 24, 2018
Legacy airlines United and Delta announced Saturday that they will no longer offer discounted bulk travel rates for NRA members to use exclusively for NRA gatherings, to which an estimated 100% of NRA members nationwide perplexedly responded, “Delta and United used to give NRA members travel discounts?” Now that United and Delta have made crystal clear their hostility toward a constitutionally protected civil right, they should follow their newfound activism to its logical conclusion and disarm not only the U.S. Marshals who protect their flights but also the airlines’ own pilots and crews.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27534/dear-united-airlines-and-delta-if-you-really-michael-j-knowles?amp&__twitter_impression=true

[narciso]

Turnbull, btw is as close to mittens (a goldman man, but not the ones with any common sense)
As they can generate down under,

[Man Tran]

SBW,
I was definitely not intending to be pedantic. I was concerned that a lot of folks here might not get the gist of the scale factors involved.

Clearly, all that is lost on the leftards who are stuck at guns=bad, scary guns=super_evil. Of course they’ll move that goalpost as necessary.

On a slightly tangential note, the new NOVX ammo looks scary hot to consider for packing. My little Kimber Micro9 having the same punch as my Gold Match II would be amazing.

[sbwaters]

Man Tran, anything you say I listen to.

Thnx for the pointer to NOVX. Scary.

[Clarice Feldman]

A fun read, h/t:Instapundit:http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/24/the-news-medias-rush-to-judgement-on-the-russia-probe-has-left-it-looking-like-ancient-astronaut-theorists-entertaining-but-wrong/

[henry]

Wouldn't you want a pistol engineered for that load? I ask because my shotgun (Browning semiauto) is an early model chambered for 2 3/4" or 3" rounds. I hunted one season with 3" and the extra charge blew the fore stock apart (a couple clips popped off the wood and hung the gas piston). New fore stock and stuck to 2 3/4" afterwards. Let the ducks into the decoys, you don't need extra hot loads. I assume the same for packing. How much difference does a hot load make at 10-20 feet?

[narciso]

Bob Baer is the latest one with the sasquatch, ahem hunting Hitler gimmick