Just Awful In Paris

Notre Dame burns.

On the life/lemonade spectrum, no one was hurt and this will give France, and much of the world, an opportunity to unite for a worthy cause. I don't know how much expertise the US can contribute but we will surely pitch in.

Furthermore:

A French firefighter official told reporters the main structure of the cathedral has been saved and the two iconic main towers are intact and have been saved as well.

Here's hoping this was just a dreadful construction accident and not terrorist-inspired. There does seem to be a slight possibility that some wave of attacks on Catholic churches in France has been underway, although evidence free speculation is inappropriate.

Comments

[Jim Eagle]

First. And good night.

[Narciso79]

They dont even read their own copy at mediaite, hes the deputy mayor.

[Narciso79]

It was pointed out on althouse that there was a lot of lead in those ceiling tiles, this will be an environmental nightmare as well as a great cultural loss.

[Another Bob]

Willowed.

About that Notre-Dame photo I linked?

No MM I got it from you, I’m a follower of yours. I didn’t note the “Retweeted by” part at first.

[Another Bob]

Narc, from memory I thought the ceiling was stone not tile? The windows though, certainly lead.

[MissMarple2]

https://amgreatness.com/2019/04/15/only-8-of-the-21-democratic-hopefuls-expressed-sympathy-monday-as-notre-dame-burned/#.XLUit8c7UfI.twitter

I didn't expect to see a lot of sympathy from this group.

[Ralph L]

The ceiling is stone, but the roof is lead.

[Ralph L]

I would think the lead would melt and drip onto the stone vaults before it would vaporize. Probably clogged a few gargoyles, too.

[Another Bob]

Gotcha Ralph, thanks.

[MissMarple2]

Bill Kristol's only comment on Notre Dame:

Bill Kristol
‏Verified account @BillKristol

It will be a happy moment when President Flying Water Tankers is a private citizen once again, a mere occasional annoyance rather than a national embarrassment.

=================

I didn't think the aerial water tanker comment was stupid. At least he was trying to think of a solution.

[MissMarple2]

Bernie do you support killing babies up to the moment of their birth?

Bernie Sanders: “It happens rarely”.

So, yes. #BernieTownHall pic.twitter.com/CPfRF2wRZS

— ConservativeNationalist_1 (@Nationalist_KAG) April 15, 2019

Video at link.

[James D.]

I didn't think the aerial water tanker comment was stupid. At least he was trying to think of a solution.

Exactly. Kristol’s just being a total ass, which is his only talent at this point.

[Narciso79]

Or as the Brits would say what a wamker?

[Narciso79]

Speaking of, it appears cpls lemans act was funded with embezzled money quelle surprise.

[Porchlight]

[Redacted] Bill Kristol.

[Porchlight]

California firefighters douse apartment building fire with direct water drop:

https://youtu.be/Wy5w4Xg8U7Q

[MissMarple2]

Porchlight,

Thanks for that video. I posted it on Bill Kristol's tweet.

I didn't think the President's suggestion was stupid. As I thought, he usually knows what he's talking about.

[Dave (in MA)]

Pundit Review@PunditReview
#BernieSanders donates 3.4% to charity knowing he’s
running for #POTUS as a socialist. That’s adorable, really.
Bless his heart

[Narciso79]

Oh goid grief, the memorandum is even more vekakte than usual

[Narciso79]

It's not as dramatic as this, but it does make you think
https://www.drivethruhistory.com/destruction-of-the-temple-foretold-by-jesus/

[Narciso79]

So it's the tapestries that serve as fuwl.

[Narciso79]

Coincidence, I think not:

https://www.thejournal.ie/france-jails-jihadist-woman-accused-over-foiled-terror-attack-in-paris-4590216-Apr2019/

[Narciso79]

Karsenty is the guy who proved the al durrah hoax thsy still went after him, because no good deed.

[Dave (in MA)]

TP just Shepped a link I posted to an article about 'M'-word people who were laughing at the ND fire.

[Narciso79]

Buzzard feed, should I rename it dossier feed is full of hot takes.

[Beasts of England]

Life must be tough when you've been exposed as a fraud and then rendered inconsequential by someone you consider an inferior.

[Narciso79]

Is that Kristol shep or all of the above?

[Dave (in MA)]

Interesting,
https://twitter.com/TipsyPianoBar/status/1117938596952993793

[jimmyk]

She can only think of it as (Kafir) "art and architecture," not a place of Christian worship:

Ilhan Omar
‏Verified account @IlhanMN

Art and architecture have a unique ability to help us connect across our differences and bring people together in important ways. Thinking of the people of Paris and praying for every first responder trying to save this wonder.

[Narciso79]

Is this the one Dave?

https://images.app.goo.gl/wan1CRBUheJhWwWb9

[Captain Hate]

Here's a music group I saw tonight:

https://aerophonicrecords.bandcamp.com/album/the-early-bird-gets

[Beasts of England]

It's sad that there are multiple correct answers to that question, narciso. :)

[Dave (in MA)]

Yes, Narciso, from an article by P amel a G elle r.

[D]

“So the wrong Notre Dame burned”-Henry
“Good point”. -MM
Both are offensive and upsetting comments to me.
There is a grotto and a church on the Notre Dame campus.
Insensitive.

[D]

TM:
“Evidence free speculation is inappropriate”
Since when has that stopped commenters before?

[jimmyk]

Is typhuspad acting up for others tonight? First I got some kind of 'captcha' page, and now the avatars aren't displaying, just boxes with people's handles.

[D]

Jimmyk is correct about the Cathedral being open and the long lines.
I am just so saddened by this.

[JM Hanes]

Working fine for me, jimmyk.

[JM Hanes]

If you hear me use the word "iconic," just shoot me where I stand.

[JM Hanes]

I wasn't aware of these details on Assange getting the Ecuadorian boot:

The process of moving Assange out of the Ecuadorian Embassy started a year ago, on March 7, 2018, when the Ecuadorians made their first request to the U.K.: a letter asking for written assurances that the U.K. would not extradite Assange to a country where he could face the death penalty, according to the Ecuadorian Interior Minister Maria Paula Romo.

Ecuador's direct outreach to the U.S. came six months later, through the country’s ambassador to Germany, Manuel Mejia Dalmau, according to U.S. and Ecuadorian officials. Dalmau sought a private "emergency meeting" in Berlin with the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, Richard Grenell, viewed as one of President Donald Trump’s closest envoys in Europe, the officials said.

[…]

The Latin American country said it has spent $10 million on Assange, including medical expenses, legal counsel, [security] food and laundry since 2012 when Assange first sought asylum from Sweden where he was the subject of a rape investigation – an inquiry he has claimed was politically motivated. Prosecutors in Sweden on Thursday announced they intended to re-open the investigation.

During one meeting, Dalmau asked whether the U.S. would commit to not putting Assange to death, according to a senior US. official.

Grenell then contacted the U.S Justice Department to see if he could provide assurances that the U.S. government would not seek the death penalty. According to the senior U.S. official, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein consented. That enabled Grenell to make the pledge. The agreement between the U.S. and Ecuador was a verbal one, according to a source in the Ecuadoran government.

Perhaps that has something to do with the purported charging decisions.

I had also never heard the details of the Swedish "rape" charges. I decided not to post explicit excerpts from the article I've linked here, but I have to say I think the accusations may actually merit the Whoopi Goldberg treatment. They don't exactly sound like rape rape to me.

[Narciso79]

I chose civilizational aspirational rather than Iconic because that is used more than truck full of detergent

[Narciso79]

How would he have qualified for the death penalty, it isn't the Spanish inquisition?
Frankly I think they overcharged re the key filings

[JM Hanes]

Perhaps the Ecuadoreans assume we impose the death penalty willy nilly, for a great many more crimes than we actually do. OTOH, what's the penalty for treason?

[Narciso79]

Ecuador was the most reasonable of the trio with Venezuela and Bolivia which is like saying jumbo shrimp. If memory serves Snowden wanted to go there.

[JM Hanes]

Where do you go for pix? The Daily Mail, of course. If you check out the video, it's absolutely remarkable what survived, much of it apparently not even scorched, although I would have assumed that they would have had ignition level temperatures inside.

The D. Mail also has a separate article which pictures some of the salvaged objets

[Captain Hate]

The penalty for treason in the US is defined in 18 U.S. Code § 2381. A person convicted of treason “shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”.

If other countries rely on our MFM for insight into what life here is like, surely they get a cartoonishly negative caricature.

[Narciso79]

That fire looks otherworldly, I know it sounds ironic.

[Narciso79]

The espionage act is closer, but the info was open sources to anyone. The parallel with the bolsheviks did with the British legation and the hostage takers did it the American one

[Narciso79]

A sizable cohort
https://interestingengineering.com/the-39-greatest-constructions-of-gothic-architecture-in-the-world

[Narciso79]

Guess where the gargoyles went:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1117982913990025216

[JM Hanes]

Folks have probably already seen this updated version of Edward Hopper's "Nighthawks" which I meant to post at least a year ago, but just in case:

I love how instantly recognizable Trump is! And shoot, the other folks could be us.

[JM Hanes]

"A sizable cohort...." I have to admit I like almost all of them better. Notre Dame was never a fav (which doesn't mean it isn't a loss of monumental proportions, some of them literal.)

[JM Hanes]

And since we have an abundance of Catholics at JOM, perhaps you can halp me sort out which twin is which in this icon of Saints Cosmas and Damian.

One of them always seems to be depicted in a pinkish tunic and the other a darker, often blue, one. I'm not sure whether it's the robes that are the giveaway, or their positions left vs right. Does the above ring any bells?

[MJW]

Perhaps the Ecuadoreans assume we impose the death penalty willy nilly, for a great many more crimes than we actually do. OTOH, what's the penalty for treason?

I doubt an Australian citizen can commit treason against the U.S.A.

[JM Hanes]

Well, that would be a stumbling block, MJW! LOL.

[JM Hanes]

Via Drudge:
Dog is rescued after it's found swimming 135 MILES out at sea.

[anonamom]

Context matters!

So the wrong Notre Dame burned?
Posted by: henry

Henry's very witty comment was made minutes after a post announcing that RINO Supreme Paul Ryan will be joining University of Notre Dame's faculty. Poli Sci.

Maybe teaching "How to NOT Seize the Opportunity to Advance Your Agenda When Your Party Has House, Senate and Presidency."
Or "How to NOT Support Devin Nunes When He's Investigating Spying on a President Who Is Not a Saint."

No offense was taken, because none was intended.

[jim nj]

I've been having problems with my internet connection all night, but I'm going to try a round0up on Notre Dame. Cognrats to Clarice's
mom too.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/paris-notre-dame-cathedral-on-fire-reuters.html

"Firefighters at the scene directed much of their efforts toward saving the artwork stored at the back of the cathedral, which had been undergoing renovations."

That would not surprise me, nut it does make me wonder about the extent of the fire. Was it mainly the roof and it's wooden superstructure?

https://www.fastcompany.com/90335390/notre-dame-fire-why-historic-restorations-keep-going-up-in-flames

As our engineers and builders commented earlier this is a real possibility. A re-construction accident.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/notre-dame-rose-windows-fire/

Possible that the rose windows survived to some extant, not yet clear though if they did or if they are damaged. They can be re0created, but the historical aspects of them would be lost if major repairs are required.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/the-latest-no-french-trees-big-enough-to-rebuild-roof

That there might not be sufficiently large trees to re0build the wooden roof superstructure does not surprise. I think it would be better to use steel as a replacement.

We'll have wait for more definitive information, but so far it sounds like the interior of the church wasn't damaged as badly as you might think. I may be wrong, If the main fire was the roof and its wooden superstructure that might mean that cooler air was continuously sucked into the interior and that it was not itself aflame.

Highly, highly speculative on my part, but it seems possible considering that fire-fighters were rescuing religious artifacts.

I've also seen reports that three tycoons have pledged in excess of $300 million collectively for reconstruction. Not a bad idea if you want your name to become immortal.

[MissMarple2]

Thank you, anonamom. I was gobsmacked to find out that offense had been taken at that.

Of course, I wish no harm to the church, grotto, or anything at the university, nor does henry.

I spent quite a bit of time yesterday upset at the destruction of a sacred site, and the idea that I was wishing harm and uncaring seems unfair.

[jim nj]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chevron-netherlands-ecuador/chevron-says-dutch-supreme-court-rejects-ecuadors-95-billion-claim-idUSKCN1RS0DE

I knew that the US and Canada had shot down this claim. I wasn't aware that it was being litigated in the Netherlands also. Anyway, they lost there also.

[MissMarple2]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6927219/YouTube-fact-check-algorithm-incorrectly-tags-live-broadcast-Notre-Dame-fire-9-11-attacks.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

[MissMarple2]

https://nypost.com/2019/04/15/italian-bank-will-pay-1-3b-fine-for-money-laundering/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

[MissMarple2]

https://apnews.com/18c41215284d4b65b6206488fe37b6cb

"In the heart of Paris, a symbol of France buurns"

A first-person account by an AP reporter who lived in Paris.

[jim nj]

https://twitter.com/GreggFavre/status/1117847726786371585

Thread on the Notre Dame fire. Makes sense and he has great respect for Parisian firefighters.

I'm getting a sense that once the fire hit the roof and its wooden superstructure there wasn't much that good be done for it. We may find out that the suppression effort wasn't on the roof, but on saving the towers.

All speculative. I'm trying to stay within the 72 hour rule by assuming it was an accidental fire. I expect more details tomorrow.

[MissMarple2]

https://twitter.com/areinaud/status/1117916691353067521

This thread has several pictures taken from inside the cathedral this morning.

[MissMarple2]

jim nj,

I think that 72-hour rule is a good idea, myself. I honestly hope it was accidental.

I think a lot of people in this country, who are neither Catholic nor particularly art or history oriented, were surprised at how much seeing it burn affected them.

[MissMarple2]

Reuters Top News
‏Verified account @Reuters
2h2 hours ago

Notre-Dame smolders as investigation begins https://reut.rs/2UEmWKd by @matthiasblamont

[jim nj]

MM,

Thanks for the interior photos. They seem to confirm what I was thinking. There was probably no way to save the roof once it caught fire.

I'd like to hear from a fire science expert that fighting the roof fire aggressively might have damaged the interior more. The firefighters might have known that and focused their efforts elsewhere.

I am willing to assume it was a tragic accident pending an investigation.

The prior attacks on Catholic churches in France is troubling though.

[MissMarple2]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-campaign-to-report-30m-haul

With average donations of $35. That's pretty amazing.

[MissMarple2]

jim,

I am starting to think you are right. Because we didn't see much water trained on the roof, it looked like the firefighters weren't doing much.

I think I should impose the 72-hour rule on my judgements of emergency responders, too.

[MissMarple2]

https://www.breitbart.com/news/notre-dame-soul-of-the-french-nation/

Good historical overview and pictures. The spire was erected in the 1800's, which I didn't know.

[MissMarple2]

Sotiri Dimpinoudis ❁‏
‏ @sotiridi
1h1 hour ago

#Breaking: Just in - The donations to rebuild the cathédrale Notre-Dame de #Paris. #NotreDame in #France, has reached combined over 420 million euros. with Louis Vuitton and Gucci owners to donate up to 260 million euros.

[Melinda]

Why Chevron wins everywhere but in Ecuador, now:

http://theamazonpost.com/rebuttal-donzigers-lies-cannot-excuse-his-fraud-law360/

[jim nj]

MM,

That's what I'm thinking now. The response of the firefighters may not have been ineffective.

It may have been well considered.

I suspect they might not have been able to save the roof even with a Herculean effort. And it may have impacted the cathedral even more.

I liked the jimmyk comment about the fire in his building where the fire department response may have made thing worse. Fire damage is bad, water damage is even worse. Fire damage can be contained in an apartment or condo, but the water damage is worse because it effects everything below the fire.

[MissMarple2]

https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/1117968767357739008

This guy has a running thread on the fire and investigation, with photos and video.

He has spoken to a firefighter who said that all electrical wires used in the renovation had to be run up the outside of the building and were prohibited from being in contact with the wooden roof and vault.

[MissMarple2]

The Hill
‏Verified account @thehill
30m30 minutes ago

Fox News' Shep Smith shuts down French commentator suggesting Notre Dame fire wasn't an accident http://hill.cm/egJS1He

[MissMarple2]

Mark Knoller
‏Verified account @markknoller
8m8 minutes ago

Today at the WH. No public or press appearances by Pres Trump today. He's got lunch with VP Pence. and later, attends a ceremonial swearing-in ceremony for @EPAAWheeler, narrowly confirmed by the Senate in Feb 52-47, seven months after Scott Pruitt resigned under pressure.

[MissMarple2]

https://dwightlongenecker.com/notre-dame-was-it-arson/

I follow this priest, wo is a convert from Anglicanism. He's British.

He has included some facts I haven't seen elsewhere, and it's worth a read.

[Captain Hate]

Not Who We Are 101

[Porchlight]

I'd say 52-47 is not all that narrow in modern times.

[MissMarple2]

Captain Hate,

If you are referring to Shep, his shutting the French guy down has resulted in 2 stories so far plus countless remarks on Twitter.

I don't think he accomplished what he was intending.

[MissMarple2]

Porchlight,

No it's not. Knoller is CBS Radio, which explains his point of view.

[Another Bob]

Apparently, the wood roof was waterproofed with sheets of lead. This prevented water from getting to the wood that was burning.

[Gentlejim]

Captain,
Guarantee that Not Who We Are 101 will be required for graduation. They’ve probably already worked out graduate level courses.

:)

[MissMarple2]

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/apr/16/bernie-sanders-capitalism-success-story-still-cant/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

[Extraneus]

What happened to the 72-hr rule?

Notre Dame cathedral fire was ‘an accident,’ officials say

“This was an accident,” said Valérie Pécresse, the president of the Île-de-France region which covers Paris, CNN reported. “It wasn’t intentional.”

Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said there is no evidence of arson and that investigators are working under the assumption that the inferno was an accident.

He said the probe will be “long and complex” and will involve interviews with workers from five companies that had been hired as part of a $12 million renovation of the 850-year-old cathedral.

[henry]

RealSaavedra's avatar
Ryan Saavedra @RealSaavedra
13h

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi takes another shot at socialist Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY), says a “glass of water” with a “D” next to it “would win” in Ocasio-Cortez's district.

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1117917866395717632

[Old Lurker]

A-Bob "Apparently, the wood roof was waterproofed with sheets of lead. This prevented water from getting to the wood that was burning."

That being a textbook definition of what a roof does...

Think "attic fire".

[Another Bob]

That politicians are declaring “accidental” less than 24 hours later, to me, guarantees they know it wasn’t.

[D]

Paul Ryan got a good job at Notre Dame.
Good for him.
I wish him well.
Even with absolution from Anonamom I still find the initial comments insensitive in a lame attempt to be funny.
Fire anywhere can cause catastrophic results.

[Beasts of England]

'Not Who We Are 101'

That's the kind of laugh I needed to start the day!! Especially after the whiney, bullshit scolding from the usual suspect that appeared in this thread about bedtime last night...

[Jim Eagle]

France24.com in either French or English is a good source for the latest on the fire. I disagree with one interviewee who doubted aerial water dousing wouldn’t since I most certainly would deluge the scaffolding.

[henry]

The state Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal of a Dane County judge’s ruling that invalidated all of the Legislature’s actions in a December extraordinary session.

GOP lawmakers first appealed the case to the 3rd District Court of Appeals, which issued a stay of the circuit court ruling, then asked the Supreme Court to take it directly.

In addition to granting the petition to bypass, the court set oral arguments for May 15 and laid out a briefing schedule.

https://www.wispolitics.com/2019/supreme-court-to-hear-lame-duck-suit/

[Tom R]

Over 100 people were interviewed during the Horowitz IG investigation. Remember the discussion a few months back by some people here who believed nothing was going to come of the Horowitz investigation, that the crimes of the Obama administration were getting swept under the rug, because of reports that Huber had not interviewed key witnesses?

Was whoever promoting that narrative in the media intentionally being deceptive, perhaps to hide the true scope of the investigation?

https://twitter.com/lisamei62/status/1117965752617795584?s=21

[Another Bob]

OL, yes, but the difference being firefighters couldn't get onto that roof to open access to the “attic”.

[rse]

MR-you seem to be under the impression that your opinions deserve some kind of respect merely because you wrote.

You continually pipe up with support for pols who push evil policies. Having a poli sci course taught by Moneyball for Govet/ author of Evidence-Based Policymaking Act Paul Ryan simply furthers the 21st century belief that law and politicians can sculpt people into organized systems as malleable citizens.

ryan and romney can go F themselves for such visions. If you support them despite their continued machinations, well, don't be surprised so many here choose to killfile you to keep their blood pressure from escalating from the inanity you write incessantly.

[MissMarple2]

Jack,

I am amused by all of the super-smart journalists who, because they found one expert who doubted aerial dousing would work, use that to show how "stupid" President Trump is.

It's also amazing that "no evidence of arson" less than 24 hours after the fire is accepted as a valid conclusion while TWO YEARS of investigation with "no evidence of collusion" is immediately branded fake.

[James D.]

“This was an accident,” said Valérie Pécresse, the president of the Île-de-France region which covers Paris, CNN reported. “It wasn’t intentional.”
Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said there is no evidence of arson and that investigators are working under the assumption that the inferno was an accident.

How could they possibly know this definitively before the fire is even completely out?

[henry]

They blame mating season, not Trump or climate.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hungry-alligators-are-invading-streets-homes-and-pools-in-florida/ar-BBVWQlu

[Neo]

Guitarist J. Geils Dead at 71 - Rolling Stone