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December 15, 2019

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MissMarple2

henry,

Our best hope is Rudy posting all of that stuff on Twitter, panicking the wavering dems, and getting them to vote "no".

A preference cascade AGAINST impeachment would be the best thing, if you ask me.

Jack is Back!

When I was in ROTC at UC even taking an Engineering curriculum I had to take the Philosophy of Democracy which included Locke, Rousseau and Voltaire. I remember all of us looking at each other shrugging our shoulders and about the 4th or 5th class it dawned on all of us. It was how we began as a country.

BTW, it was a requirement of ROTC not my engineering curriculum. Wonder how ROTC promotes the elements of democracy today?

henry

MissM,followed by a cascade of indictments. :)

Threadkiller

These books gave the founding fathers a vocabulary in which to conduct a discourse about what a government ought to be and do.

Ben Franklin weighs in on the future government book club:


From Benjamin Franklin to Charles-Guillaume-Frédéric Dumas, 9 December 1775
To Charles-Guillaume-Frédéric Dumas

Reprinted from The Port Folio, ii (1802), 236–7; extracts: American Philosophical Society; Archives du Ministère des affaires étrangères, Paris; Algemeen Rijksarchief, the Hague.1
Philadelphia December 9, 1775.Dear sir,
I received your several favours, of May 18, June 30, and July 8, by Messrs. Vaillant and Pochard....

....I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel. It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly, that copy which I kept, (after depositing one in our own public library here, and sending the other to the college of Massachusetts Bay, as you directed3) has been continually in the hands of the members of our congress, now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-22-02-0172

Yes, the same Vattel that defined a Natural Born Citizen to one who is born with attachments to only one sovereignty.

The Infamous Ignatz

--That said, I have to disagree with your assertion that, "Their particular genius was to then know how to codify those traditional virtues." I think they were rather remarkable for not attempting to do any such thing. The closest they might be said to have come was the Bill of Rights, a proscriptive list which presumes a certain lack of virtue.--

The Constitution codifies the virtues of life, liberty, property rights, equality before the law, limited government, individual rights, religious liberty, self reliance, self defense, self governance, freedom of speech and thought and a host of others. All of those stem from our Western Civilizational heritage and the things the Founders proscribe, they proscribe precisely because they destroy the virtues and liberties they were promoting and preserving.
I didn't say they codified every virtue, large and small toted up by an army of Scholastics, but that they relied upon the great edifice of Western Civilization. They did.

--While I'm not sure exactly how dramatically we differ, I do think your assertion that, "They were men shorn almost completely of ideology," seems wildly overstated, especially considering the arguments and politicking that went into both our revolution and the Constitution which emerged from it.--

I'm not using ideology in the current unfortunate sense of any group of ideas that inform anyone's political thoughts, but in the earlier and more useful one of a systematic worldview not particularly susceptible to rational argument and usually at some level utopian in nature. As I've noted many times here James Burnham makes the critical distinction between a political philosophy such as conservatism and a dogmatic ideology like leftism.
That the Founders were one of the least utopian, least ideological [in the sense I mentioned] and most profoundly practical [and virtuous] groups of political philosophers in history seems pretty indisputable to me. That is why Edmund Burke was so sympathetic to colonists revolting against the very parliament he was a member of to establish a practical and free republic and so hostile to the idiotic ideologues in France creating a utopian republic upon a mound of severed heads of people he considered his nation's enemies.

Jack is Back!

Of course, we can recite our history lessons about the Constitution but what about how it is implemented today? Since 1913, we have been on a slippery slide away from the basic tenets of the constitution and its advice as a republic.

Who and when do we restore its original intent?

MissMarple2

Thread on how we were misled by those who pushed relations with China and how it took Trump to show how wrong they were.

https://twitter.com/drawandstrike/status/1206373800201326592

jimmyk

sbw, the reason to read Rousseau is to see his errors and negative influence, and contrast him with Locke and others. But my point is more general and not specific. Skip Rousseau if you like, but know the thinkers who most influenced the Founding Fathers.

JM Hanes

jimmyk:

"How many have read these today? How many of our supposed leaders in government could tell you the first thing about these thinkers?"

Perhaps the more salient question is why are those who do understand them not running for office, or participating in a more active way than simply casting a ballot now and then?

Jack is Back!

I have asked this question every Sunday night football but why is Chris Collinworth still employed by NBC. He is the most terrible commentator on football. And he had a unmemorable football career. He ruins a completely interesting game.

MissMarple2

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/474518-top-pentagon-official-announces-resignation-second-within-week

Second within a week? How interesting. One would think that the super-funding of the military would KEEP Pentagon officials on the job.

DrJ

I've not mentioned this, but we have real music in the house again. It is wonderful.

Forget football. Bill Evans is playing.

Narciso

Blackmail i think mugh explain it.

sbwaters

jimmyk, I take your point.

It is important to be able to critically examine and refute the proposals of others to show how they are either impractical or they lead to unacceptable consequences.

Too many today have lost — or never gained — the ability to consider alternatives, understand them clearly, and integrate/reject them as necessary.

Jack is Back!

DrJ,

Didn't know you were a Jazz fan. Always thought you were Classical.

Bill Evens always the top guy in piano jazz. I still have copy of King of Blue on my cd player.

MissMarple2

David Horowitz
@horowitz39
·
54m
the hatred of Trump by Brennan, Clapper, Comey, Mueller, McCabe, Page, Hillary, Steele etc is documented and obvious. What in the world can no political bias mean given these facts. Nor were these mistakes and errors. That's the way Communists used to explain the atrocities

JM Hanes

sbwaters:

"Far more sensible is Emerson’s better crafting of Dictionary Johnson’s “The louder he talked of his honour, the faster we counted our spoons.”

Alas, I guess Emerson was just not around, when we needed him. Otherwise your point is basically the same one I made at the end of my second paragraph in reference to a certain lack of virtue being the operating principle behind the Bill of Rights.

A platitude is not necessarily meaningless, of course, especially in this particular case when discussing the role of virtue in governance generated by revolution.

MissMarple2

Reuters
@Reuters
·
9m
Yuan and Aussie off four-month high, sterling ticks up https://reut.rs/36EMCYY

jimmyk

sbw, I had to read Marx (Communist Manifesto) at some point. Glad I did, to know what pathetic garbage it is. Just a bunch of platitudes. Hard to believe anyone over the age of 16 ever took it seriously.

DrJ

JiB,

Let's say I have very wide-ringing musical interests.

sbwaters

My concern, JMH, is that for those who insist on a role for virtue in government never seem able to explain the virtue they seek.

I'm more of a character kind of guy. Character is individual and independent of government structure.

There is no role for virtue in governance. There is a role for character in deciding for whom to vote in and out of government.

sbwaters

jimmyk: I had to read Marx

I read just enough to know I didn’t have to read any more.

JM Hanes

TK:

"Yes, the same Vattel that defined a Natural Born Citizen to one who is born with attachments to only one sovereignty."

That's like your personal version of Epstein didn't hang himself!

sbwaters

Love the meme of AOC: ”Einstein didn’t kill himself.”

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

DrJ, I feel your joy!!
About 10 years ago my lovely wife gave me an iPod. I loaded it up with music ... music I had on CDs but had not listened to for years ... and I learned that I still loved much of it.
Last year our eldest put us on her Spotify as "friends and family" and just this week, said wife learned to logon to the app and how to create a playlist. She is walking on clouds listening to songs that she loves.

Music is truly amazing.

DrJ

Jim,

I'm not going to go into details unless there is interest, but we had an OK kitchen sound system. It was fine for what it was and is.

What we have now in the living room is just great.

Threadkiller

That's like your personal version of Epstein didn't hang himself!

:-)

sbwaters

jib: Who and when do we restore its original intent?

I’m with you. To do that we need to laugh down the postmodernists who claim:
1) history is what you cherry-pick and lie about to fashion the future you want,
2) words mean what they say they mean, and
3) you can’t say what "offends" me.

Any one or more of those points undermines civil discourse necessary to even consider restoring the Constitution to its original intent.

Those who will not engage in civil discourse have abandoned civil society for the Law of the Jungle. That is their prerogative, of course. We just have to recognize when, by their actions, they do.

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

Who here is expert on the topic of cooking oils to use for low carb diets?

I recall hearing that there are Omega-3 and Omega-6 oils and that one is good while the other is bad.

My wife balks at using olive oil because she frequently cooks at high heat. She says olive oil can't stand up to it.

Since I mentioned to her that I'd heard experts discussing the topic on YouTube vids and at a talk at our nearby library by a doctor, I've been deemed Teh One. I've been tasked to research oils and choose what we will go with when our current oil is exhausted.

Recommendations are welcome but I don't mind digging in to scout around YouTube or use a browser search .... for that, I only need a starting point.

Narciso


Swamp rat or something else:


https://prhome.defense.gov/Leadership/jamesStewart/

Jane

What, if anything, do you guys expect this week?

jim nj

jimmyk,

Thanks for the info on the ultra-orthodox Jews and electronics. I wasn't sure if you were talking about rules or attitudes.

While growing up all of my Jewish friends were either non-religious or associated with the more liberal congregation.

I can never keep the names of the denominations straight in my mind. Englewood had at least two synagogues in my youth. The one you could drive to and the one you had to walk to.

Narciso


Day ending in y:

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/12/newsweek-parrots-the-mullahs-line.php

clarice

Jim, Ghee, avocado oil..I use canola but rarely..sometimes that's all that works.

Thanks, JMH.

As for Rousseau--anyone in college who liked that miscreant was on his way to hippiedom. Phony baloney.
I had a longstanding debate with one of my brothers in law who adored Jefferson. I regard him in some ways as another phony. Ben Franklin, however, is my favorite..I think my b-i-l is coming around to that point of view.

Did you know Hamilton's mom might well have been Jewish. Rachel taught him Hebrew and he read from the Bible in Jewish day school.. https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/189128/alexander-hamiltons-jewish-connection. I expect along with the enlightenment worthies, everyone of the founding fathers had read and studied the Bible.

In any event, many of the same tensions we see politically today between how much power to grant to the federal branch and how much should remain local, are represented in the Founding Fathers themselves.

Stephanie Nene Not Your Normal Granma

Peanut oil or sunflower oil, but both are expensive.

Narciso

That is a fascinating angle clarice, i suppose anyone could have channelled locke into the declaration, the revolutions partisans like tom paine was one step behind the jacobins and edmund burke was not sanguine on colonial ventures as we discovered with india.

Stephanie Nene Not Your Normal Granma

BTW the Greta pic? The train company put out a twitter that she actually had a first class seat.

Paid actor!

Jack is Back!

jane,

Zilch or Nada or Nothing since Barr has alredy said it will be spring or summer.

The Infamous Ignatz

--Otherwise your point is basically the same one I made at the end of my second paragraph in reference to a certain lack of virtue being the operating principle behind the Bill of Rights.--

The entire Constitution is an exercise in protecting citizens from the lack of virtue in human beings. That is the whole idea behind limited government and self governance.
Of course the Founders didn't believe people to be particularly virtuous. That too is from Western Civilization; "there is none who is good, no not one, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". The Western tradition is that man is vile and not perfectable. The utopian left believes man is, given just enough force by just enough leftists with just enough power, namely absolute. The Founders, not being utopians created a Constitution of "negative rights" as Barry whined, precisely because they knew that lack of virtue is most dangerous in the collective power of the state.
But those limits on state power and the recognition of man's nature don't mean they didn't believe in virtues to strive for or that man does display imperfectly.
The great personal virtues of WC are ideals to be fostered and aimed for knowing they won't be attained. The political and institutional virtues of WC are those that name each individual as uniquely created and equally valuable and that ensure the greatest possible liberty for the greatest number while retaining the protections of a civil society.

The Infamous Ignatz

And most importantly, as even a deist like Jefferson recognized, the triumph of WC is the notion that we are each a possession of God, not other men, and that our rights and Truth come from and are not separable from that Divine authority.
Spinoza and Rousseau believed they are separable and Robespierre demonstrated that they also separate the head from the body, even for those who sought to enforce Rousseau's defective social contract.

BariJerry

Not sure how I missed this Christmas song for so long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrIHEdKa0x0

Narciso

If men were angels, they would have no need of govt. Sadly the 1940 constitution in cuba indulgedi in too much of thid utopianism about education healthcare in the like imagine in charkes beard and harold laski had revided our constitution and you get an inkling of the problem

JM Hanes

Ignatz:

Well, I'm not sure where the slave-holders and the loyalists fit into your idealogical equation, but I do dispute your claim with regard to the lack of utopianism. There has been an strong strain of Utopian thinking running through American political philosophy, from the 17th century's "city on the hill" to the 18th century's "great awakening" to Jefferson's "ferme ornée, and the idea of a chosen nation, later morphing into manifest destiny. Utopianism has many forms, some more sophisticated and "non-ideological" than others. Yes the Founders were practical men, but I would also point out that the Bill of Rights had the least support of any element in the Constitution, and only barely made it into the final document. Do you suppose the resistance to it was practical or ideological?

Catsmeat

I've always taught Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Marx, Darwin, Nietzsche, Freud and the rest in the originals-- how else to judge them? With the exception of Locke, this is an exercise in inoculation. It often works.

DrJ

MrsJ just chose Eartha Kitt. Great voice. Both actually.

Narciso

Like the smallpox ampule. I remember them from a philosophy survey class and not fondly. Thise in power are unable or unwilling to often give up hence magna carta glorious revolution boll of righrd

clarice

You are truly evil, catsmeat.

Narciso

Heh, i think we began to go wrong when the conception thar people are naturally good took hold. That made it possible for evil to take charge the great awakening was a reckoning a rebalancing of accounts.

BariJerry

As a high school teacher, I am amazed at how many students think everyone will do what's "right" if given the chance. I have been told more than once that everyone is born knowing right from wrong (this is used as a reason religion is not needed). The world is made so safe now for them, they just don't have the experience dealing with people.

Wonder what they thought of this quote from a popular movie: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."?

Narciso

They dont really understand it, or they take it literally.

jimb

A nice companion to all this reading might be "History of Political Philosphy," Leo Strauss and Joe Cropsey...

MissMarple2

When I was taught Indiana history, we had a big section on Utopianism.

Why?

New Harmony, Indiana.

New Harmony was settled (before we became a state) by a utopian colony, then purchased by another colony when those people decided to go back to Pennsylvania.

You can read about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony,_Indiana

DrJ

Aretha Franklin. Then the Beach Boys.

Maybe Cheech and Chong are next? MrsJ is a Haight-Ashbury girl, after all.

MissMarple2

Why Adan Housley left Fox and opened a winery. His stories were killed.

Adam Housley
@adamhousley
·
9h
My reporting showed the FISA abuse and unmasking began in 2009 and it didn’t matter if you were a Republican or Democrat.

Catsmeat

Thanks, Clarice! Truly, only a fool could take Marx or Nietzsche or Freud seriously after he has read them!

BariJerry

I had a student who was all in for socialism. I was amazed that he used the expression I had read here and other sites (but never heard), "Socialism failed because it wasn't implemented correctly". At least he had researched it somewhat, talked about how Catalina had the only socialism that was working until war messed it up. Didn't take me much research to refute that (I did have to research it, didn't know much about it).

Catsmeat

And I also teach nineteenth-century utopianism, with its many follies, from Southey's failed Susquehanna project to Bronson Alcott's failed Fruitlands project and beyond. Mockery is v. useful.

JM Hanes

BariJerry:

I think perhaps you meant Catalonia -- which I only know because I had to look it up myself!

DrJ

I had a student who was all in for socialism.

All of the kids I have hired believe in socialisim. They are stunned by what I have to withhold from their paycheck as an employer. I don't go into what it would cost otherwise.

Janis Joplin.

JM Hanes

Catsmeat:

That some heavy lifting!

Narciso

So they misread orwell or perhaps didnt look at it at all.

BariJerry

Yes, I typed it wrong or got spell-checked! Tx!

Barbara

Great discussion on the Founders.

JMH,

Your comment at 06:24 PM is excellent.

Buckeye

MM

One time when I was working on a project in Mt. Vernon all the motels were full so I stayed at the Inn at New Harmony.

As I recall, lots of historical info on what was clearly a failed experiment. I thought the room sucked because there was no TV in keeping with the Pietist's beliefs, and there was a game I wanted to watch.

Only good thing was the food, fantastic.

Narciso

Typepad doesnt take waughs blog apecially the entry where it showed he recommended to look into his brother in laws background.

MissMarple2

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1196495155655847937.html

Stephen McIntyre
@ClimateAudit

An interesting connection between George Kent and alleged whistleblower Eric Ciaramella. On Dec 9, 2015, exactly as Biden effort to link IMF $1 billion to Shokin removal was coalescing, Ciaramella met Daria Kaleniuk of the StateDept+Soros funded Anti-Corruption Action Center.

DrJ

Alice's Restaurant.

Yes, I am enjoying this. It has been a long time.

MissMarple2

Buckeye,

We lived in Evansville for about 2 years. Evansville is about 45 minutes from New Harmony.

As I recalled it, it definitely was NOT one of the most luxurious places to stay - more like something run by NPR!

Barbara

I have asked this question every Sunday night football but why is Chris Collinworth still employed by NBC. He is the most terrible commentator on football. And he had a unmemorable football career. He ruins a completely interesting game.

Posted by: Jack is Back! | December 15, 2019 at 08:20 PM


Yep. I agree completely.

Narciso

I think there maybe sonething to housleys point, codevilla admitted to david samuels that the abuses were codified after the supposed fix was done in 08

sbwaters

All of the kids I have hired believe in socialisim.

Dr J., ask them if they had to work for their allowances.

Narciso


Angles that havent been followed up:


https://mobile.twitter.com/CJBdingo25/status/1206355617260212224

JM Hanes

Thanks, Barbara! I appreciate the encouragement.

MissMarple2

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31445/recently-retired-usaf-general-makes-eyebrow-raising-claims-about-advanced-space-technology

This article has lots of quotes and tweets. I believe it is spot on, and why POTUS was pushing ahead so much.

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

.

JM Hanes

In other news, Beethoven's 10th is brought to fruition by artificial intelligence. That would be "artificial intelligence and a team of international experts from science and music," but mostly, I suspect, by a team of international experts.

jim nj

Enjoying the conversation about the founding fathers and political philosophy. Would also like to note that political economy was working along side with the above.

In both cases they were looking to understand how things worked and what might be the best way of achieving an enduring political system.

Narciso

Reminds me a little of the duo in keeping up with the jones, jon hamm (who plays abureau agent in jewell) and gal gadot.

DrJ

Country Joe and the Fish. Not my style, but MrsJ heard them back in the day.

MissMarple2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=8NdbANrjFWE&feature=emb_logo

AG Bill Barr speaks at the lawyers' convention at The Federalist Society.

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

Instapundit open thread ...

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

Comparing Trump and Obama ...

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

.

Narciso

Maybe some janis joplin some hendrix ive referred to warren starr ironically.

Jim,SunnyvaleCA,USA

I'll stop now. :) :)

Narciso

Sadly conor cruise o brien was sadly correct

https://m.jpost.com/International/German-commissioner-says-Merkels-envoy-boosting-antisemitism-at-UN-610933?fbclid=IwAR3tYSwU6d8rueEmXwUiP7fTgceupCNFbGJU6PqJvfOIMsBIpPxaxkShEaY

Narciso

Brinkley would be rolling over

https://mobile.twitter.com/ThisWeekABC/status/1206224863012114437

MissMarple2

CHIZ
🇺🇸
@CHIZMAGA
·
38m
🚨
Just In: Democrat State Senator John Yudichak of Pennsylvania announces that he’ll be switching his registration to become an Independent and will caucus with the Republican majority.

Narciso

While we're slapping wallace on theback

https://mobile.twitter.com/OptimisticCon/status/1206243774826868737

Another Bob

State senator MM.

JM Hanes

Every little bit helps!

JM Hanes

LOL! From Ace

DictionaryXmas

The Infamous Ignatz

--Utopianism has many forms, some more sophisticated and "non-ideological" than others.--

Well, everyone, probably even psychopaths, entertain some form of utopia in their mind. But the context is political philosophy and ideology. An ideology has as its goal creating an actual utopia, or as near as it can get.
A political philosophy OTOH, like for instance those espoused by all of the Founders, may or may not entertain the notion of some utopian ideal, but it always realizes it is not a realistic goal and therefore seeks a realistic method to minimize encroachment on liberty and rights balanced with a realistic acknowledgment government of some size must exist to guarantee against internal and external criminals and force. And a political philosophy always takes note of and makes allowance for the imperfect status of human nature, which is what renders any utopianism a fantasy perhaps to be dreamt of but never indulged.
The shining city on a hill bit is meant to reference the USA as a beacon of hope for the rest of the world mired in its misery. That's not utopian, merely anti-dystopian.
The Great Awakening[s] were religious movements which had some political repercussions but are not in the realm of political philosophy.
And Manifest Destiny was hardly some utopian dream. Dems loved it and of course people clamped all sorts of romantic gibberish to it, but it was mostly a bitterly contested, slavery and politics riddled informal concept. Lincoln and many others contested or resisted it. And despite the wooly-headed rhetoric everybody knew at some level, we weren't making a utopia, we were kicking the heads in of the Mexicans and the Indians in order to make the country bigger, get rich and for the south, hopefully expand slave territories.
Utopians are Eric Hoffer's True Believer not John Fremont or Laura Ingalls Wilder.


--Yes the Founders were practical men, but I would also point out that the Bill of Rights had the least support of any element in the Constitution, and only barely made it into the final document. Do you suppose the resistance to it was practical or ideological?--

Since they weren't ideologues it couldn't have been ideological. However IIRC there were several objections to it. The primary one I remember from the Federalists was that by enumerating our rights those not listed might be curtailed because they weren't listed. OTOH as I recall the anti-Federalists were agin the whole Constitution unless it had a bill of rights, because they wanted to make sure the states and their citizens retained their power.
As it turns out the Federalists were dead on, but in the end wrong. Because if it wasn't for the bill of rights we would have virtually no rights left.
The anti-Federalsits were dead wrong but in the end right. Once the incorporation doctrine was introduced the states were subject to the very list they had wanted only applied to the Feds. But their concern about the Feds running roughshod over the states was right on the money.
Both positions sound eminently practical and non ideological to me.

clarice

For some bizarre reason TP won't let me post Wauck's blog. Much of it appears in this--his blog just contains some new info he received after this was submitted:https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/12/predication_is_for_chumps_the_sorry_lesson_linking_crossfire_hurricane_to_robert_hanssen.html

Narciso

Well in mexicos case it was a cobtested terrritory in texas, they were settlers like the colonies in judea and samaria. The russians did similar things in the caucasus notably the tatars.

The Infamous Ignatz

Here's a nice little bit on what I mean by ideology.

MissMarple2

Another Bob,

Yes, I know it's a state senator, but it's a sign that the down-ticket people are getting nervous.

As Catsneat says, every little bit helps!

Narciso

Contested territory, santa ana was like the egyptian and jordanian commanders which lost more territory with each war.

KevlarKid

https://youtu.be/QBUOKnLdJpc

ahhh sweet Lorraine.... Country Joe is alive and well in Berkeley. has become a pal o mine on this broad highway.

Momto2

That is an encouraging trend on Dems leading the party! I've seen a couple of videos of how their constituents are letting them have it at their local town hall meetings.

Possibly they want to avoid this:

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame